The Lean Builder with Authors Keyan Zandy and Joe Donarumo

Joe  0:00  
Keyan and I both really appreciate this book study. It's been awesome to hear your unique perspective on it as well as get some engaging dialogue and discussion industry go around it. I wrapped up collabo session number six this morning on my drive over to Dallas to meet with Keyan. I'm actually in Keyan's office this morning. So we probably need some further discussion on on CPM.

Felipe Engineer  0:34  
Welcome to the EBFC. Show, the easier better for construction podcast. I'm your host Felipe Enginner-Manriquez. This show is all about the business of construction. Today's episode is sponsored by...

Sponsors  0:47  
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Felipe Engineer  2:00  
Today's episode is sponsored by Construction Accelerator,

Sponsors  2:04  
The design and construction industries come up with and build great things. But we also build in waste in how we do those things, in our interactions in our contracts in our logistics. So what does this do for our bottom line, or our next project, the best firms maximize their value by removing that waste, and only doing what's essential to the work what makes them money. Construction Accelerator will train you to see the waste and give your teams the lean tools and experience to remove it immediately. All online. Construction accelerator is made up of three to nine minute videos that can be watched again and again, in the field, at the office and at home. All broken down by topic. You need to learn goal planning, we have videos on the process, how to set up a room and how to kick off the team need to set up a target value delivery project. We discuss all the aspects of TVD especially cost or maybe you just need to brush up on five as well. We have videos on that as well. You can download and print reference materials to use on site to immediately translate watching into doing subscribe today at tri ca now.com. Let's build an industry, not just a project.

Felipe Engineer  3:16  
Today's show is also sponsored by the Lean Construction Institute. LCI is working to lead the building industry and transforming its practices and culture. Its vision is to create a healthy and thriving industry that delivers outstanding project outcomes every time for everyone. Check the show notes for more information. Now to the show. Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the show Keyan Zandy and Joe Donarumo. 

Good moring! And we've got two very special guests with us Keyan and Joe, authors of one of our most favorite lean nonfiction and fiction book. It does both - The Lean Builder. You got your book, Jesse, where's your book at?

Notice that in my book, Joe and Keyan, there's first page is blank waiting for your autograph. So I will start to travel with this book, every time I come to Texas, for the odd chance that I might be able to get you to put a signature on it. Ooh, baby.

Jesse  4:27  
We're all from the construction industry. And there's a certain stigma that that we have from let's say, folks that aren't in our industry. And maybe expectations are a little lower folks that are in construction and and other professions. And so my I've been wondering, like you guys going out on a limb to write a damn book about lean stuff is a pretty courageous step. Because it's the first one I mean, there's other lean construction books, but this is really about the application and a lot of the human side Applying the last planner system, what kind of nerves what kind of anxiety or insecurities did y'all have as you were working through this?

Felipe Engineer  5:16  
Before you answer that question, I would love if each of you would say a little bit about yourself.

Joe  5:21  
I'll get started. So, I'm Joe Donarumo. I'm one of the co-authors of The Lean Builder book which Jesse and Felipe have been doing these collabo sessions on. My my day job, I'm a senior superintendent for a construction firm called Lindbeck. I work out of Fort Worth, Texas, and I primarily focus on healthcare construction, also hit up our lean application within our company internally.

Keyan  5:47  
So I'm Keyon Zandy, CEO of Skiles Goup. Skiles Group is a general contractor based in Dallas, Texas, we primarily focus on healthcare construction, but we do work in about 13 different states and  I'mproud to known Joe for how long has it been over 10 years now I came into the industry early 2000s started implementing last planner system in around 2004. And so I've been around it for a while and tried to make it work so many ways and gain so much value over the years. But it was probably 2011 that I took the paper version of the last planner, which it used to be all, you know, two weeks and six weeks and paper that we would pass around and kind of just blew it up made it visual. And that was really where the lightbulb came off. For me and a lot of the other superintendents I was working with at the time, we started transitioning from that weekly subcontractor meeting to a daily huddle meeting, you know, the journey with the lean builder for me, it's been just years and years and years of getting it wrong. Or having a you know, on our blog joke, there's a blog mujjo wrote was like, if your last pool plan suck, like, you know, here's some tips, and it's because of out of the 400 pull plans I've ever done prior 250 of themselves, you know, the beautiful that is is is just this journey. And so, you know, for us to link up and, and put this book together, and we put everything we have into it from all those years, just an effort to try to help people. So I'm pretty humbling.

Joe  7:31  
I'm going to kind of dive into Jesse's question, because it This is going to take a little bit to answer. So I think we've kind of got to set the context of really what was in our hearts and in our guts for Keyan and I actually got to the point of, you know, why did we want to write a book, and then kind of our emotions and feelings and insecurities around it as we started to, you know, get closer and closer to rolling it out and starting sampling amongst our peers. But you know, with Keyan and I's journey together starting at Lindbeck, and then key on how to transition and made a move to scouts group we were still finding ourselves traveling and going to LCI Congress going to events, local CoP events in DFW and trying to find like that right resource that we could, I mean, honestly, selfishly use even internally with our folks who are hungry, who are thirsty, who wanted more, you know how to help give them like some type of a roadmap or like some practical steps of how to either improve on their Lean journey or even begin one like the right step. And we were struggling because there was still there was so many good documents, publications, you know, around lean in the tools and the methodologies. But the problem that we were seeing in the disconnect was that they were all education based, they were theoretical, they were white papers, which they all have their place, but the target audience like the demographic that we needed to deliver the information to, or the men and women putting that shit in place. 

Keyan  8:58  
And, Joe, sorry to pause you said that so eloquent. Like, I got tired of like finally convincing a superintendent or appear to try implementing lean in the field. And they said, Hey, well, how do I do it? And then I handed the Toyota Way. that that I mean, that's your like, this is all Japanese terms. Like, how am I going to use this and I'm like, and that's I think we're so many people struggle not to catch up to because I want you to keep going down this path. But some of the bigger issues that we were seeing was like I got frustrated with in the current state, you couldn't scale this. I'm trying to say, you know, and what me and Joe talked about is like if you're working for a company that only does 30 million in revenue a year like there's got to be some type of system that they could pick up a book, understand how it works and go without any additional resources that matter the level of skill set of that super from being high tech, low tech, old School, new school like to just get it, it didn't exist. And it was that was that was hard. Yeah, that was frustrating. Sorry, keep going.

Joe  10:08  
That was the gap, right? Like That was the missing link that we needed to bridge. And what's interesting is like, I feel like we both kind of felt that in our gut for probably about three years, like leading up to the point where we actually began to write the book because we were going to, you know, LCI Congress and we were constantly like kind of searching around looking for the right presentation or the right maybe champion or coach or someone who was like putting this together simply some type of a package like that, that we could deliver for, you know, our own needs, you know, with our with our own team or to share within our local Corp and help those around us. And then after three years of like, feeling like we were continuing searching, like I remember this all goes back, I think I might even talked about the story with Philippe, one of the earlier podcasts by coincidence, we happen to book like the same Southwest flight like going out to Anaheim, California to pick was 2017 to the Congress in Anaheim. And you know, I see each other and oh, grab a seat, and we're sitting there talking, and we're talking about this exact subject right here. Like, man, maybe this is the conference, maybe this is the year we're gonna find something. And it was on that flight where we're sitting there talking like, why, why are we waiting? Like, we know the need, we know, the demand, we know the audience. Let's just do it. This is like right off the top of the head and we're looking around and you know, I did the pamphlet I think I've told you about the taillight, we pull up the 747, like safety pamphlet, we're like, okay, no, okay, we'll just like step one, daily huddle, step two, visual communication, step three, step four. And I will just put it in like this pamphlet, they'll tuck it in their safety vest, and we'll give them a play by play of how to start. And that's really where the idea in the premise and where this whole thing really, really came together.

Keyan  11:59  
I've read some books, you know, obviously, the goal has been a great book that I've that I've just always had in my, my collection. And then there's this book called everything I learned about Lean Manufacturing, I learned from Joe's garage. But when I read Lindsey ogis book, and I think Joe read it at the same time, he called me He's like, man, we should do a book and write it like this. And you know, at first I was like, man, I don't want to write a book. That's why. But just thinking through it as talking about it, trying to map it out. And, you know, we figured if we were going to do it, that was going to be the way to do it. It was just important to us. And I don't want to turn anybody off to what I'm about to say. But there's something I feel I felt that there's some consultants, coaches, not all, there's so many great ones. So don't don't misconstrue what I'm saying, but that have actually turned more teams off to LinkedIn for either coming from just not a place of understanding of what we do, and never put on a pair of work boots never been on a job site. And it was important to us that if we did this, like the builders voice would be represented, it's very clear who this book's written for. And this is for boots on the ground. Anybody on the project site could pick up the book. And like immediately, like be it begin to get some value on their projects just by slowly putting the stuff in a place. Then after the book came out, very humbling, a lot of great feedback. But then people were like, man, it would have been awesome if there was some illustrations or some pictures or some things. And so that's kind of how the website and the blog came about. And so as I already you want to see, like, what it looks like more detail. And so we've spent a lot of time just just trying to break these concepts down further that way. You know, somebody learns about this. They do a Google search. something comes up written by builders, and it's just something that they can relate to.

Jesse  14:03  
Sounds like y'all came out of the gate just with 100% confidence and clear vision. No, no misgivings or second thoughts about embarking on that journey.

Keyan  14:14  
Yeah, I think Joe and I may suffer from something called overconfidence. Okay.

Felipe Engineer  14:22  
Tell us more Keon.

Keyan  14:24  
Well, it's funny, I find them telling the story.

Joe  14:27  
You tell the story about when you and Terry were on vacation. Yeah, yeah.

Keyan  14:31  
So maybe we took the kids to spring break, you know, for each and I just watched this, Steve Harvey clip. And I don't know if you guys know Steve Harvey, and you know, but he, he does a Family Feud stuff, but you know, I think he preaches too. And so sometimes he goes, he's got these clips. He's preaching in the audience. And you know, he's telling everybody like, you know, you got to know everybody's got a gift. You got to know what your gift is. And then you got to jump because if you don't jump, you'll never fulfill your gift. And so we accept get the kids to bed we've had a couple cocktails and me my wife and my wife's a professional too. She's an executive at her firm and we're talking about you know, what our gifts are and have you have we jumped or you know, have you taken risk in your career? And she asked she asked me point blank she said, let me ask you something she's like you enjoy writing this book that they're gonna hand out at the Lean Congress and at the AGC convention in front of all your peers and people that are experts in this and all these things right? And she said, has it ever crossed your mind once like what if it sucks like are you not like extremely worried or having anxiety around that? Like I swear to god like that was the first time that ever crossed my mind so we determine that my gift was that I was just over here that with Joe like I could just tell like that look on Joe's face he's like oh yeah, I guess that could be I could be something.

Joe  15:59  
Never even thought about it from like the quality like I was then I was kind of playing with my mind. I was like, Oh crap, this is really gonna work. We're about to give LCI 2500 bucks back it never even came across our mind and not from like a standpoint of of not being you know humble or having humility around it's just like it just never it never penetrator permeated into our brain because this was all literally what was in our heart for like the last 10 years around the pain in the frustration in the lessons learned. And it was literally just like, verbal vomit as we're writing this because it was all just right from here like, straight up like right down onto the paper and we never even gave it a second thought of was this even is this even good or not because we were just telling our hearts story and in the journey that we've been on in trying to help others relative to their own journey

Keyan  16:53  
I just say like people ask ask us a lot like how long did it take to write the book? Well, it took me the whole career to write the book you know? Yeah, like yeah, you know saying Oh, it's nice to get some mailbox money or selling kites like yeah but like to get to that level of expertise see, like you know, how many years of like sucking at this and like trying this and trying to get it to work and learning from so many different mentors and people in the industry and just constantly being a student to get from you Joe to get kind of get to that level of expertise to just we're so proud to have something that we've been able to actually contribute back because I feel like what's so awesome about our community of us lien enthusiasts is like we share so much and so for so many years like I felt like I was just taking you know, like I'm just taking and taking them learning from you know, different people and different experiences taking taking and then finally you get to a level to where it's like man now I want to give back like I've learned so much like now I how do I give back and so it's been fun to get into that mode and really start sharing and have this and like to have people tell him it's helped them and that kind of thing. I mean, it's just it's pretty cool.

Felipe Engineer  18:03  
You guys are having an amazing experience I love that you came from your heart and it started with massive frustration I've actually read this book more than one time that's how much I liked this book.

Joe  18:15  
Yeah.

Felipe Engineer  18:15  
how about you Jesse? How many times you've been through it?

Jesse  18:17  
You know, I've been through it. I guess with with you and I in the collateral session that probably puts me at about six times when I was reading it the first time I'm like, I was like yeah, let me check you know, Joe's cool, Keyan like they're smart maybe it's good and as I was reading like holy hell like this is going to be a resource for a lot of damn people that are struggling like you know I was with Turner at the time and in the way some of us approached the last planner system made it harder than it needed to be and so I'm reading this I'm like shit man like yes this is exactly right i mean for me I'm like it was took me back to when I was running last planner, or when we were learning running last planner system as a trade partner without the GC like yeah, we were able to do it we didn't get all caught up on all the bullshit like we were just able to make what achieved some level of flow right after that we had teams in all over the central United States who were like hey Jess, we want to do a study Action Team around the lien builder or we want to start a study Action Team what book do you recommend now like well shit you got to do the lead builder and then like well would you mind being a part of the team? I'm like, shit yeah, let's do it. You know, because I did have to do some reconciliation between what was presented in the book and what was what the standard was per as per Turner and just try to help Yeah, the Turner way You got it. You got to carry the flag, whatever organization I work with, I'm going to carry the flag, but it was just kind of like look start here. But this is where we want to get to, but this is the best place to start. So there was no doubt that it was going to be a resource and I mean everywhere I go now I'm with lifetime with the construction department and they don't know but it's common baby you're gonna be buying some certainly builder and for the lnm family out there listening the you know the young tradesmen the young engineer that's just getting out of university and kicking off their career. Like you guys are a phenomenal example of what can be accomplished by identifying a problem and taking action upon it. It may have taken 10 years, but that's what we're all at right everybody's got an idea it's inspiring man. It's freakin amazing. Thank you.

Joe  20:42  
Appreciate that. Jesse yeah means a lot. Qian and I actually had our our launch party like the Tuesday night there downtown Fort Worth the week of Congress and still probably one of the best highlights of my career being able to share that with Keon and Terry and my wife, Tasha, and just the journey over the past two years writing it and finally kind of coming to a culmination in launching it there that Congress was something I'll never forget.

Felipe Engineer  21:10  
You guys took some beautiful picture. So for those of you listening, you have to go to the lien builder COMM And look at those glorious photographs that Keyan and Joe have every every time I look online, and I see the pictures that you guys took, especially the ones that the bookstore, they are incredible.

Joe  21:30  
Yeah. That's actually a bars a bar. Yeah, you wouldn't find this in a bookstore.

Felipe Engineer  21:40  
This library bar?

Joe  21:42  
It's in downtown Fort Worth. Yeah, it's like there's a little speakeasy and you go in upstairs and it looks like a library and then there's a little speakeasy kind of like a little bourbon bar and are

Keyan  21:52  
as we start talking about how we wrote these chapters and this and that there's one chapter in particular where there was a lot of bourbon involved in the writing. Before we leave...

Felipe Engineer  22:04  
Yeah, go ahead, start sharing.

Keyan  22:06  
Yeah, we're getting close to the end of the book. And Joe and I are headed to AGC national convention in Denver. Anyway, we got there early and there's that Union Station in Denver. And there was just this nice little bar and Union Station we start writing the PPC chapter which is one of my favorite chapters of the book we really wanted for like some type of story where people understand how Alan even got to where he was implementing this in the first place. And I wanted to start with Joseph we got to find some type of parable or something that people would know to tie back into this and so you know, obviously you know sharpening your ax or sharpening your saw is that thing and there's there's things around that and so the whole thing with him and his dad and and we're sitting there we're typing in order in and type in an order in and you know, my director of marketing who edited our book and is really in a lot of ways the third author of the book she's just such an unbelievable writer and storyteller and so me and Joe would just write and write and write and we'd send it to her and she craft and cleanup and storytel and and she called me It's like she's like this chapter seven, like we got to talk she's like, you guys wrote this chapter. And I'll say, like, oh geez Joe like yes. And she was like, Man, this is like the best chapter in the book. So we're done the whole boy like that. Well we've been doing this Oh yeah. There's like a lot of I mean, to me the biggest thing that I remember that not a lot of people care about because the book was is to teach people lean but just the journey of writing it with Joe and just some of the this is like both of us just our journey combined of like what it's been like in this industry and then to put it out Yeah, and like to get feedback that like this is my exact same journey unbelievable that in some ways like we're still all living the same bad dream You know what I mean? Like there's a good friend of mine Chris, who's with Turner he said like man like this thing gave me PTSD you know, it's like going back is like just all the stuff along the way and we and in our industry, it's what it is we've just gotten so numb to the waist and the dysfunction and the long hours that like we can't even you know, we can't even it's hard to even elevate we've just accepted it for what it is. And that's and I just I can't tell you guys enough like I couldn't believe how how well you read into that you know, just like it's in the early chapters like how you know, you couldn't have Alan just telling Sam what to do. Like he had a fail through it. You know what I mean? You couldn't have you Yeah, Sam like, like, he had to show his true colors at some point with the two skin rules and the way he treated the architect this and that because prior to knowing anything about this, that's the way we're seasoned and conditioned coming into this industry. So it had a play out the way it did. I stand behind every way we did it. And I remember early on like, some of the people again, like when I call it a builder's lien, like I think some folks may have had some problems with like, like, you got to say like, we don't talk about last planner system to have more than halfway through the end of the book. that's intentional, like, you know, you find for me some company that does not do daily huddles that does a weekly hour and a half subcontractor meeting once a week, that has no culture of respecting trades, the trades have a culture of hate your projects to race, it's not a team sport, they've never been empowered to talk, all those kinds of things that you guys hit on. Yeah, go go, go try to do a pull plan session, go try to teach last planner today. I love that, you know what I mean? So like, for us, it's like an even when these Joe do a workshop, or try to teach this, like the whole first half, like we don't daily huddle constraint boards, how to run an effective huddle, how to implement digital communication. And you know what, like, if you could do that for a year, you'd be better off than where you are now, you know, then yeah, when people actually start to see the value, they start to get curious. Now start implementing a little bit of last planner.

Joe  26:36  
And even just to go a little deeper, like it's just through the implementation of those simple tools that even build the foundational culture on that job site that you have to have in the frickin first place of trust, accountability, mutual respect, even go do last planner system, do a daily huddle, be consistent leverage visual communications, have the right discussions around the workflow and make your constraints discussed in visual at the daily huddle to bring in team accountability. Like if you do that, across all your projects and skill that across your enterprise, you're lightyears ahead of where you are.

Keyan  27:10  
If you're working for a large progressive general contractor, like, yeah, you know, in that type of environment, there is a lot, you know, those firms are more adapt, and the people are more season to go that route. There's 10,000 General Contractors in our country, like forget about the bit of us that are involved in LCI and forget about the majority that only do 50 million, you know, like 50 million or more a year. Like if we're really trying to make this the standard in our industry. Like, there's like, that's where I like to focus. There's so many other people focusing on, hey, let's do a simulation game with the team. And let's do all Hey, that's great. I'm looking for that superintendent, that is working 80 hours a week, in some market where there's no community of practice, where I mean, this is just trying to figure out a better way to do it. And like that, that's what we're about, like, like, that's where we want to focus. And that's why we spend so much time talking about just even building the right culture. And that's why I was really laughing so hard at the podcast, we're like, Jesse, you're like, you don't even you don't even know my name fool. Like, me. Yeah, I mean, for so many years, I mean, how we get so frustrated. When I was in the field, and like fire, sprinkler foreman and a duck work foreman would come to me and be complaining about each other, but looking at me, and I'm like, Are you talking about Dan, who's standing right here who you've known on this job for the last six months? But then over time, it's like, well, no, you know what, he hasn't actually got to know, Dan, because Dan doesn't talk in the meeting, because we only have one meeting a week. And in that meeting, we don't ask Dan to talk. And so it's like, that we could have done the whole book on that new book could have just been about last planner. And so I think that's kind of the mindset of like, I think for the folks that are in the bigger firms that have internal processes, this net, which I know the books help, and I'm we're humbled for that. But like we're hoping to, like change the industry with the kind of conversations you guys had in, in the earlier podcasts around those early chapters, because that's just the stigma in our industry. That's the conditioning in our industry. And that's got to fix otherwise, none of this other stuff is going to work. These tools won't work just like Joseph, you're right.

Felipe Engineer  29:35  
Yeah. And Joe, you're right, too. It's 2021. And I still go to construction projects every month. And in 2021. I've been to subcontractor, because that's what they call them meetings. I call them trade partner meetings. And it's coming from those values and culture that we have, it's a little bit different. And I think all of us on the call have a little bit different approach to it. Sure. And I want How often are questions asked of the trade leaders? And how often are they encouraged to speak. And in a two hour meeting that I was at, in the last six months, not two sentences. It was a lecture, it was a two hour lecture. So I think that for all the people listening, that have this stigma with academia, the very same people that complain about they don't like school, and they don't like it to be in school, you're creating a lecture environment on your job site. When you don't ask for people's input. You have brilliant people working on your project, you've hired amazing, qualified companies, individuals. And when you don't ask, and you think that you have to mastermind, the whole thing, you're turning all those people off. And you will not be able to keep up with complexity that is construction in this century. I'm super happy. And it's real. Like as I read this to Jesse and I were getting triggered, like your friend, Chris Qian, with PTSD. I mean, we were we were getting angry about things that had just happened like days ago, when we were recording these sessions over there. And I think it took us like half a year to record the book. So and I totally agree with you, Joe, like it's got to be starting with the simple stuff. If you're out there, and you're just like, last planner is too complicated. You're right. It's too complicated. And if you're out there, and you think last planner is so simple, everybody should do it. You're right. But those two different people have different perspectives. And I love that and how this book you can pick up and thumb into any chapter and just start with that thing. Right now.

Keyan  31:42  
When I go to a presentation or like when I'm at LCI, I can listen to somebody talk for 3045 minutes and have at least one to three things that I can immediately take back and implement. Man, I'm happy, like I judge all the presentations, I go to buy that alone. And it's so important for us to like when we wrote the book, and we're sharing this information, like, we want to give you something that you can take and immediately apply on the job site right away, like no theoretical, no, you know, you got to go invest in this technology, or you got to buy all this stuff. Like No, you can just like, here's something that you can go do tomorrow.

Joe  32:20  
You should be able to start this with zero cost. And that was even the build off of what Keon was saying there like, our hope was that the guys and gals would read the story but even know in like our demographic and the industry like she let's just give them the cliff notes at the back of the book. Like let's just put all of the content that we were trying to deliver around the implement implementation of the tools and methodologies. Just put in the playbook. And let's just fast forward if they want to know, okay, what are the seven things I need to know to go have an effective daily huddle, boom, here they are chapter play one in the playbook, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, okay, got that down. Okay, what do I need to talk about in the daily huddle? Okay, visual communication. Here's what you need to talk about? Where do you work it on where they work? And how many guys do you got? Where do your deliveries, what are your constraints, like, feed the information through there. And that was the whole premise, because we wanted everything to be tangible. We wanted everything that they can read one chapter before even moving on to the next chapter. Okay, great. Now I got five things that I can go try out on my job site on Monday morning, to try to get a little bit better. And that's kind of the the filter that we put everything through in regards to the content and how we try to roll it out.

Jesse  33:35  
That's exactly what you're talking about. After they read a chapter. They're now equipped to go do something. What advice would you give folks that feel like they need to take the book with them, and make sure they do it perfectly. Otherwise, they're failing?

Joe  33:49  
The biggest thing I could even start like to start even in that conversation realm is trying to put the book down, read the first chapter, find what you want to do, and then start small. And it's like, it's no and that's one of the reasons why I think I was listening. I actually listened to yells collabo session number six on the on the drive over this morning. And y'all hate on it. You nailed it in that discussion about last planar system, like, they try to eat the whole thing at one time. And it's no wonder why last planner system leaves such a bad taste in the mouths of those who tried it and it failed and like oh, that doesn't work. Let's let's go back to the way we were doing it. You got to start small, you got to get a little bit of momentum and he got to show the value add to yourself and your team before you're ready to move on to the next thing like if you're not proving that that system or tool is creating value, then there's there's no justification for taking it any further. So start small, think about your audience. Think about your team, bring in ask them ask questions and find out what's going to make the most value for them. We like to think of this as kind of like the Betty Crocker recipe. Try try this recipe first, like give this the first shot.

Felipe Engineer  35:04  
Hey, real quick.

Sponsors  35:06  
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Keyan  35:57  
At Scout troop, we use lean boards, those lean boards have a version number on them, everybody operates off version one, then we start meeting as groups start to see Is there a better way to do things. And then if we all agree, we all update the standard and go to version two, here's my compass to our people. If it adds value, that's lean, if somebody tells you to do something that's lean, and it's not adding any value, then that's not lean. And you should stop doing not trying to check boxes here. It's all about the compass of value waste. If it's not adding value, then you either you're doing it wrong, or you don't need to be doing it. And it's that simple. And for us, like I like to empower people, like they'll know, like the field will know, the field will know they come to a daily huddle. And the superintendent is 80% presenting and 20% facilitating like and they don't get to talk as much and this and that, yeah, they'll get a little bit of value. And maybe they come and they participate. But at the superintendent is 80% facilitating, and you know 20% telling, and now they're engaged this and that, like they're gonna see the value and then they'll want to come and so just that's the compass but I totally agree with Joe start small. And people like well, how long should I should I wait, it's like, who knows wait a year, what are you trying to accomplish if you're trying to build your firm up to be a firm that is a true leader in implementation of lean and changing the industry and pushing the needle. Like every project in your entire firm should have a huddle. Every project should be using Visual Communication. Every project should be managing constraints. You get there Okay, now let's start with last planner system. Now let's start trying to implement pull planning. You know, you know how it is a lot of people like to pick and choose, you know.

Felipe Engineer  37:51  
They do, everyone wants to shop off of the alla carte menu. Yeah, they don't want to trust the chef that spent decades creating their craft and making that food just free, especially burritos just so delicious. Oh, man, you're making me hungry. I'll get some breakfast burritos soon. I think one of the things that you said Keyan earlier. And and Joe was reacting to it as well is that there has been a lot of groundwork done in this area. And people forget in lean that it didn't start in academia, it started in real companies, people solving real business problems. And from my perspective, we're on the same page of what lean is like you just said now, if it adds value for you, that's lean. And for me if you're learning and it changes what you do tomorrow to make you better, because I'm better by your standard, not by mine better by your standard to me adaline learning, adaptive, adaptive learning and adaptive mindset is all I'm looking for. And anybody that's hungry and wants to start with something that I'd completely agree. We have a lot of firms that are just anti last planner system. And if they are, it's probably for a good reason, because somebody came in, or they saw something that was like overly complicated. Anybody can actually take something simple, and make it complicated and complex. That's not a mark of genius. And so we want to make it so that if you can't talk to people in conversation, and improve how you deliver your job, you probably don't know enough yet. And that's okay start like Joe said, start exactly where you are, if you haven't, if you haven't ever asked, Are there things holding you up as a superintendent, or as a foreman running crews? If you've never asked your crew, why can't we do this thing as planned? That's the first place to start asking the question and then you'll build capacity from there. And then I completely agree with Jesse. If you're a trade partner, and you have someone that knows how to do this, you know, use them to help you Do it whether the GC does it or not. I've started to know more. I know more trade partners now than GC companies that do pool planning, when the GC doesn't, that's becoming a thing. And GC is if you're listing out their trade partners make real money. Whereas we make pennies on the dollar.

Keyan  40:24  
What I did not expect would happen, when we wrote the book was that superintendents across the country would send me pictures via LinkedIn of their Elmo dolls on their job site. That's been a little creepy. But I get a lot of that, yeah, I get a lot of that. And so that's been fun. I think, you know, for the most part, you know, the feedback that I've gotten around the book has been all positive, even from people that I've learned a lot from in respect that are in key positions, kind of like you, Philippe in your firm to where I think when they first read it, they were like, Ah, you know, we don't actually do it the way you describe. But then once their superintendents read it, and it was like the first resource that they were like, Oh, this is good. Then it was like, yeah, let's open it up. We knew we wanted to write this book, we knew we wanted to share this journey we knew we wanted to give back. But I don't know that we put much thought it'd be like what it would be like afterward, it was just something that we thought we needed to do. You know?

Joe  41:29  
I mean, I'll be straight up, I'll be honest, like, I thought, when we rolled it out, we were going to be presenting it at Congress. And we were going to be, you know, distributing it at AGC convention in March of 2020. But, man, if I'm being completely transparent, I thought it was pretty much gonna peek at that maybe like, you know, another 1000, or two copies after that, but I never would have thought we would have sold 12,000 copies in the time that we did, I didn't think the demand or the hunger for that was was that significant? Just the validation of like, Guys, what you're telling, like what you're describing in the book, that's like my day to day like you just described my current state, you just described the headaches that I have. And I think because of that, it just cracks that door open, and it gets those guys and gals so interested to, to thirst for more and to want to try to, to solve the issues in the field and power to solve their issues. And, to me, that's been probably like the biggest Aha. But also at the same time, it's been the most rewarding thing because it's just that validation and hearing the feedback that we are making people's lives better, we are allowing them to elevate up, they still may be working a lot in the alene isn't a silver bullet. That's you know, you're magically only going to work 40 hours now, because you're running lean and last planar system. But you're going to stop being reactive, you're going to stop putting out like just chasing around the jobsite, all day long, putting out fires, and the work that you are going to be doing is going to be more meaningful, you're going to be elevating up you're going to be looking for constraints before they come in and they torpedo you, you're going to be able to plan into sequence into phase and actually provide a reliable workflow to your project and provide flow. And that work is so much more meaningful and enjoyable. And in turn, your mental health is going to be better you're going to be getting home earlier. It's just going to be a more enjoyable situation. And to me that's been that's been the biggest aha.

Felipe Engineer  43:30  
Thank you so much, guys. I love both of those of you know, let's talk about CPM.

Joe  43:35  
Okay, here we go. Buckle up, hope you got another hour.

Felipe Engineer  43:41  
All right, critic. I'm gonna flex it right now critical path method scheduling. It's a world war one technology developed by Henry Gant back in the late early 1900s, late 1800s. From what I can see, can you guys tell me if I'm wrong? It's never worked in construction. This is an interesting conversation. So I don't know what I mean, it's never worked. I mean, for something to work. Yeah, it should deliver what it promises. Yeah. And that's one when it doesn't deliver. And if you have to go through heroics, and acrobatics, and superhuman things to make that thing work, if it doesn't work.

Keyan  44:26  
This is where I'll start. And I don't know that I'll get too too deep. This is where I'll start to it's two things. Two things, right. So number one is like for me, I feel like me and Joe are in the business of like, we're converting people to lean and in our journey with it. That's not necessarily a topic that I want to engage with, in that. It's kind of it's the standard, in a lot of ways is contractual. There'll be so much undoing in the way that Getting people to think in a totally different mindset, that that's not a fight that I ever want to get into. I perfectly like to teach in the way that like in chapter six, where your pull plan session, it's implemented back into your master schedule. If you built in some time that time is ticking float, if you're going over, you look for a different way to read pull, otherwise, you're looking for an opportunity to pull back in a different different milestone. But in my experience, trying to have that conversation as part of the way that I, I would teach the system like I'm turning way too many people off and I don't want to happen. Now on the flip side of that, yeah, no trade partner foreman is walking around the job with the Gantt schedule, making, like that's not how they put work into place. Okay. And so like, I've been in many debate, Joe knows, even just yesterday, many debate of like, when the people want to go really hard on me on again, I'm like, Listen, hey, record keeping, tracking, making sure that the projects on on path at a high level of macro level, absolutely. But if you think you issuing, you know, a 20 page schedule to the field is how they're actually building the job, like you're out of your mind. Number two, like I challenge anybody, even in the best, like Jesse, when you were a foreman in the tail, how your superintendent, if I come to you, and say, Hey, do you know the date that your plumbing in wall is due, I'm not gonna lie nine times out of 10. They don't use a foreman. They don't, they don't they got the men that they need. They got the materials, and they're pushing, pushing as hard as they can to get done. Like there's no necessary, I mean, and he had the superintendent's talking baits, but I could go walk any job site, ask the Conqueror, hey, do you know when you're done, do you know the date your foundation is supposed to be, they don't try it, they don't 90% of them go. And so going back to that, to me, they should, that should be something that's talked about when we talk about weekly we're playing those those mini milestones, those dates, everybody needs to feel that scoreboard that pressure, we're a team we got to get through the next phase. And so you're never gonna hear me argue Philippe around implementing last planar versus Gantt and this and that, and actually how things get built in the field. Where I won't go is that, hey, if you want to use your Gantt schedule, to make sure that your critical path shows if you're on track or not, and you're you're looking at a high macro level throughout your job, and that's what you have to update as part of your agreement. Like, hey, you're not going to hear me like try to convince you differently. In an effort to that's what turns you off to implementing lean. So I hope that's not a BS answer for you. 

Felipe Engineer  48:04  
That's not a BS answer. You started with the BSA. But then you saved yourself. So thank God, thank God, I was getting worried that I was gonna have to cut all that answer out. And now it actually gets to stay in the final, the final cut.

Keyan  48:18  
A lot of people in our industry, that's a very touchy subject. And I've seen a lot of people that they feel like that's what lean or last planner is about, you just turned them right off? I don't know, I don't know. That's a conversation that we need to have right now. I think the conversation we need to have is around building culture, getting more value back in our day, implementing some of these things that are easy to do that get more value that get people thinking in a different way. And then as that as that needle starts to push and things start to shift, I have that

Felipe Engineer  49:02  
I agree and somewhat disagree. So I myself Qian, I talked a lot of people industry, and I've been on academic research committee efforts to bet to come to just telling the industry what are the different type of collaborative scheduling methodologies we use and in that research, funded by ci included people that make a living, just doing productive product and project controls, or scheduling and we even had people that have written books on CPM scheduling. And we have people that advise large companies, large software companies that make a full time living, delivering CPM scheduling software to the industry that's used everywhere on planet Earth. And we did have some of those tough conversations and and Keon, I think those conversations are worth having. But I agree with you, that that's not going to get people convinced. And I think I think we all agree, but from the builders perspective, and the same is true for people in support functions, and also an executives, like at the end of the day, we need to build something. And so we can have, we can have some healthy debate and dialogue on what works and what doesn't. And I want the people that make their living doing those things in support to I'm not trying to eliminate your job, I'm not the definitely there are it has its place. And like you said, some of these things are contractual and standard. But what I don't want to do is to get over reliant on things that, that don't really function in a way that benefits the people trying to put the work in place. I want to always support the people building it. And the reason I do that is because the clients that we build for need these things, that's the whole reason that we're even coming together is because there is a need, and the need is not so that Joe can just build like his 55th Hospital, the need is because that hospital is going to treat people that need care and need to come back to health. You know, in the case of job he does like hospitals. And so that's, that's where I'm coming in at Keyan.

Keyan  51:12  
Well, I'll say this. I mean, that's why we need people like you in our industry, I mean, continuing to push the needle, and they already be thinking that far ahead, to have these kind of conversations and to be doing this kind of research. And so again, you know, any you know, you're not gonna hear me disagree with that, you know, I think we do need people like you that are trying to push the next phase of what this could be. So I do not hear me argue with that. 

Felipe Engineer  51:43  
Yeah, and I've had a Jessie's witnessed it on LinkedIn, people have come after me on the CPM debate and on the on Scrum as well, because that gets a lot of Scrum gets a lot of whiplash, too, because it's an also pull framework, very similar to LPS. And I'll go back and forth with people respectfully, and I'll even have to call people on the phone I've had, I've had conversations with people that some of my friends have blocked from posting on LinkedIn. And I've given them my cell phone and we've had like a 10 minute or a half hour conversation. And at the end of it, Keyan, we both understand each other better, and I've made so many more friends that way. Then I don't tell people like what they're doing this wrong. And in our company when we developed our LPs, we brought on some chief schedulers from around the organization and some other scheduling managers to make sure that this was something that works with how they're working now so we're not jumping like to go back to what you said about Steve Harvey like we're going to jump but we're not gonna jump so far that we fall down and die. Yeah, we're gonna jump and still make some progress. So what do you say to CPM? Joe? Cuz you probably f9 at least a couple times a day.

Joe  52:54  
I mean, high level I agree and take the stance of you were Qian was said, there was something that y'all said on your last podcast, I think it was Jesse. That was like CPM. And last planar system were like the parents who got a divorce. And they've been separated for five years. And now they're back together. I chuckle I chuckle does that mean to me, they both have their place. And they both serve their purpose. If anything, if I see him like if I visually visually try to see him, I see them working in parallel. They're not, they're not something that works like this in unison. They are two independent tools that are doing two different functions, serving two different functions. To me when that information, you got to capture that information from the pool. And to key ons point, the easiest way to do that is tying that back and putting it in into your CPU. Or at least that's one way to do it. And that's one way that we talk about it. But, Philippe to your point, that's not the one to me, that's not the one for one going through the schedule, making sure that it all ties back to me, that's flippin in a hammock or throwing in there under that milestone, hey, here's the milestone, here's what was in the CPM. But here's like the validated plan that we just did from the pool plan. And we're just bringing it back in here. So we don't lose that great information, coordination, collaboration handoff, make ready constraints that we just all figured out over the last two and a half hours. So it has a place to live like that's the biggest waste around pull planning, right? Like you do this awesome pool plan. And then it's like, crap, what do we do? Like what do we do with all this great information because then it's like waste because then you got to go back and try to find a place for that to live. Unless you're using some type of like touch plan or find my side or like a software that's captured for that for that in real time. So high level, they don't integrate fully there. They're two different tools that work in unison. That's the For each other that run in parallel, but you can't really compare, he can't be fully integrated. That looks...

Felipe Engineer  55:06  
Jesse said, it's like a divorce parents, but it was a mutual separation.

Joe  55:12  
Yeah, kind of kind of like, yeah, that's a pretty good way. It's, I remembered it like as soon as I was like, okay,

Keyan  55:21  
This to me, this is really good, lean nerd guru talk, right? Let's just think about how a schedule actually works right? In my role, if I'm going after a project, either the clients telling me how many months the job isn't the RFP that comes out in the first place. Or, you know, if it's something if we ever have to go after a bid, which we don't do a lot of, but if we do, the drawings come out, we get them out, probably some guy in my role builds the schedule in, you know, a couple hours based on the drawings, we get, we pride kick that to the trade partners with a week left before their bids do. And you know, then the superintendent takes it and says, oh, the ops guy made it, I get this must be the schedule for the job. And he's pushing my beautiful schedule where everything starts on Monday and ends on Friday, and they're building with, okay, and I'm being facetious here. But how did the trades actually plan their work? Well, number one, they build in the amount of man hours they think it's going to take to do the job. So if they think it's going to take 10,000 man hours, and it takes eight, well, guess what? They make more money. If it takes 12 they lose money. So I rather debate and conversations around? Do you really think your trade partners are trying to hold you up? Are you Do you really think that they're, you know, intentionally not wanting to make money? No, they want to beat the man hours they have. And I like to have the conversations around like, okay, in a pool plan. If somebody's sandbagging on time, like ask them to see if their estimator will print out how many man hours they have in the job, they actually look at the durations that they give you in the pool plan. And so there's so much other conversation in regards to how to get last planner system to actually work right, and how to have these conversations and the dysfunction of how we even scheduled in our industry in the first place. That, uh, you know, I think there's a lot of room for boots on the ground to have these kind of conversations to teach in that way, and then have a certain portion of the leaders lean leaders in our industry trying to push the needle of what it should be. And so I feel like this conversation is a good compliment of two different scenarios.

Jesse  57:49  
When it comes to the conversation about CPM and last planner system. When people start that conversation around me, I'm like, I'm out. Like, we are so far away from having to worry about that shit. Like, we got a culture respect problem in our period. Like, let's focus there, and then we can jerk around with the damn gameboard. Like we got bigger.

Keyan  58:15  
We got Jesse like, you know, we went back and forth like should we use the word trade partner? I haven't used the word subcontractor in years, we're using the word trade partner. But at the end of the book, it's like, Alright, if we start calling them trade partners in chapter one, like half the Supers are gonna be like, they know what the hell we're talking about. That's our audience. Yep. Okay. Like Yep, we intentionally tried to trigger without turning you off completely. We had to play certain thing safe. And then certain things you know, I mean, it was intentional when Sam's like my schedule like that's, that's very there was so much of that night and it was I've been a part of a lot of bookclubs mujjo and different companies that have read the book have asked us to come spend some time and even in our own firms but it's interesting like I've never seen anybody go like pick up on the nuance that deep and I'm glad like I think that conversation needs to be had because there was just a lot of that that was intentional, like you know when say it and one of the chapters when like Sam he stayed up too late watching the game. He procrastinated on building in the crib for their new baby is pm happened to be on vacation that we forgot his phone, like that's a real person's day, sometimes in orbit. And, and for him to have the compiling issues of the firefighting that was going on with all the cut like, that's what happened. Like that's just the way it is. And people are human, and the way they react is going to be human, especially on the job side. And so it's good that you felt that way. Like that was the intent. 

Felipe Engineer  59:56  
My favorite part when Jesse Jesse got triggered They were gonna write a letter to their office or call their office and he's like, well, you better cc my mom on the email.

Keyan  1:00:06  
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's funny. Like, I think I remember like me and Joe, like, me, we sat so long, so many I just typing and laughing and writing and like, I just remember. Yeah, I remember being like, Oh, yeah, and tell him he's gonna, like copy, you know, they're gonna put them in default, or something like we had that conversation, because that's the conversations we had, you know, that's how the general contractor things.

Joe  1:00:29  
To us, it was so important for Alan to be the character dropping the knowledge onto Sam, who was the younger demographic. Because I think that's another significant challenge that we're facing in our industry today, because we're at a really kind of weird, pivotal time where we've had all these amazing leaders. I don't even like saying the term old school because it's, it's, it's those leaders in the wisdom and the understanding and in what they have made them unbelievable, amazing builders. But the game changed, like it's not them that's changed. It's the current state of this frickin industry. Like it's, it's the design is the skilled trade. In the lack of it's just the trades in general. It's the communication styles. It's the the trade partners, and just the you guys having to manage the skilled labor and just not having the time to plan and get into the weeds. And most of the time, you're ripped off at one job and thrown on to another, you don't know what's going on. And you know, because of that it's made, it's just tough. For what I feel like a younger, less experienced, either project engineer, APM, superintendent to, like, bring these ideas and topics up to some of these more senior leaders who are like, why do we need to change what we're doing here, because what I've been doing has been working, I've been with my company, 30 years, my owner a bunch of money. The client asked for me by name, like what I'm doing is not broken. And we just felt it was important to show Alan being the one dropping that knowledge to not alienate that specific demographic, and bring them into the story and have them engaged into the discussion and just get them there in the in the first place. Because it is something as an industry. We got some work cut out for us. And it's going to be a hurdle that we're going to be trying to manage for long.

Keyan  1:02:30  
Yeah, it couldn't just be some hot shot. Young Superintendent trying to school everybody on how to do this, like no one would have. I mean, I'm not saying that's not what happens in a lot of companies, you know, it's usually a younger, somebody tried something that hadn't been burned so many times. And so they did that's trying to do something new. But like, that's not fully our audience, our audience is to try to help those folks. And that's what Yeah, like Joe said, Man, Sam, had to be the junior guy, Alan, the sensei had to be the older guy. And he had to drop the knowledge in a way that like you don't even he's just not spoon feeding it, like Sam has had to learn it.

Joe  1:03:06  
If you can get one of those traits, or field leaders from your firm, if you're a GC, one of those superintendents with some gray in their beard with some knowledge with some wisdom, who traditionally you might consider that old school guy, you can have one of those leaders be your lane champion watch, because this guy's going to be the limit, because you're going to see the momentum and the dynamic change within your firm if you can get those type of leaders bought in. And they're the ones carrying the torch that have that seniority, and have that just that charisma and dynamic that everyone else is going to follow and get behind, it's going to be a game changer for your firm. So don't just think of pushing those guys out. Like you need to bring those guys in like those are going to be the guys that are going to take you to the next level still.

Keyan  1:03:51  
One of our senior senior superintendent, buddy blump, brumley. Got some posts in there. And he's a guy, and it's a more seasoned guy in our industry. And man when the light bulb came off for him, and he became our champion. I mean, it helped us scale so much. And so yeah, like Joe said, you really got to find your champions within your firm.

Felipe Engineer  1:04:09  
Even if you're in a small firm of just six superintendents, or if you're in a big company with over 200 superintendents, that is true. Your influencers are sometimes the older, more seasoned people. And sometimes there could be in the middle as well. And there are there are a couple examples of some young hotshot superstars. But the industry has so much momentum and habits baked in. I was talking to a PE this week, and he said, like, I actually learned last planner system in college, and then I came to work in the industry. And I couldn't talk about it. And he said it wasn't a he's like three years went by. And then the next thing I know is like you're sharing something, and we're going through something and we're and he's like, I'd already done this before, and it's like, well, you didn't even speak up at that in that moment. Is that to say that, you'd even have have some experience and I was like, that's what I'm fighting against. I'm fighting them where we can't even let those people speak up.

Keyan  1:05:05  
I remember giving a presentation at Texas a&m, just about Lean. This was probably before the book. But I was talking about material delivery board, like on our projects, we have a material delivery board tracks, you know, what's being delivered when what type of truck is it coming in, how's it going to come off the truck, all those kind of things. And I'm explaining this like, as part of visual communication to this group of students. And when I when I give this presentation in industry, like people really can't it's a good idea. We used to do that in the past or tracking hook time. And like, I see people like hot, that's great, we got to do that. I see the light bulbs go on, in the classroom setting like, blank faces. Finally, this kid raises his hands like, Hey, I got I started to ask He's like, and don't take this the wrong way. But it really doesn't sound that like groundbreaking is like why wouldn't you guys just have a material delivery board anyway. And like, I was like, you know, triggering, I was like, dude, you have been jaded by the dysfunction in our industry. Like, we don't have time to think about common sense. Like we're too busy Jason RS like, and so it's like, I share that story all the time. Because it's so funny, because it's like, when you're firefighting all day long. Yeah, dealing with issues, people issues, project issues, all that kind of stuff. We've become so conditioned to the dysfunction, we don't even know what's supposed to be there or not. And, you know, just it's so funny, you bring it up, a kid coming out of school and say, Man, I learned this. And then this wasn't what I experienced when I got here. And almost he almost forgot about it, or they it wasn't, and I get it, I get it, I see it.

Felipe Engineer  1:06:49  
It is a very intense industry. And you can be dropped in on a magical project headed to litigation, and you're gonna have a completely different experience than someone going on a job where you've negotiated with the client and the client is loves you and their name and you know that they're dropping Joe's name. And there's negotiating the job directly. Based on relationship, those are completely different things.

Joe  1:07:13  
Yeah, that's two sides of the spectrum.

Felipe Engineer  1:07:16  
I wouldn't change anything in the book, the fact that it triggers so many people in so many different levels means you did it right. And the think the lean blog, where you're sharing stories, from different voices in the industry is critically important. I've even I'll share something, had a young project engineer that doesn't even work in our organization contacted me through LinkedIn. And they said, I read this thing on the lean builder. And I've heard you talking about this, and we want to start doing this, what do I need to do. And so we just went to the same article that someone had posted on your site. And we just closed a couple of gaps and said, Go do it and be patient with yourself. It's not going to be perfect the first time a lot of people in our industry talk themselves out of trying something, because it's not going to be exactly perfect. I said the best thing you can do. And when you stand up, if your superintendents gonna make you stand up and facilitate this, tell the trades people it's your first time and that you would appreciate them to help you. They will help you

Jesse  1:08:18  
Keyan and Joe, both of you guys have sent us feedback about one of the episodes you listen and the dumb shit that comes out of my mouth. And I'm like, oh, okay, good. I didn't finish them off like this is it's actually like pretty damn awesome to get feedback from you guys. That having the impact and the fingerprint that y'all are gonna leave in the industry.

Joe  1:08:37  
Yeah, thank you guys. It's a two way street on our end as well, the platform you guys, so we're here for y'all as well. And thank you.

Keyan  1:08:44  
Likewise, very humbling to hear that from both of you. I think the two things that I would have in closing is, you know, one, when Joe and I wrote this book, like I remember telling Joe that I hope in like three to four years time, there's like a handful of books written by true practitioners or something that if anybody comes to us, it's like, here, read this or listen to this. And so what you guys are doing with your podcast, I can't even imagine the amount of time and effort that takes all the effort to give back to the industry, man, keep up the good fight. This is what's needed. And I've never been more excited about the potential of what could be changing in our industry as I am right now. The second thing and I just I hate to keep the rumors going, but I can't confirm or deny that Alan Philips was named after Felipe. routers are still out there. I can't confirm or deny that.

Joe  1:09:43  
Oh, I forgot all that Keyan. 

Felipe Engineer  1:09:49  
It's just made my day.

Very Special thanks to my guests. I'm Felipe Engineer-Manriquez. The EBFC Show is created by Felipe and produced by a passion to build easier and better. Thanks for listening. Stay safe everybody. Let's go build!