Essential Leadership Qualities for Effective Change with Kevin L. Ball

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So maybe you want to go there, but what leadership qualities do you think are.

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Essential for driving effective change in a team that can be small or across

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a department or a larger organization?

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Okay, I'm going to give you a few words, topic words that I think are good leadership skills.

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Empathy is one. We've heard this one before, right? We hear it a lot.

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So we've got empathy. Right. So let me unpack empathy a little bit.

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Empathy is not sympathy. Empathy. Empathy is really putting yourself in that

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person's place without any judgment.

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It's really hard for human beings not to be judgmental because it's a survival technique.

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When you're out in the woods, you hear something crunching and maybe something

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coming to you, you're going to fight or flight.

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You're walking down the street, you sense something, you walk into a party,

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into a room. This is what we do naturally.

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But when you're a leader in your organization and you have a team,

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you want to have that empathy and really draw a blank in your mind and be super curious.

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Empathy, be super curious and listen more than you speak.

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My dad told me one time, he says, Kevin, you have a set of ears,

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set of eyes and a mouth. He said, use them proportionately.

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I was like, wow, that's really deep, dad. use them proportionately.

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But the proportion word made me think about the OODA, like when do you listen

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more, speak more, and really be in the game with that person in front of you who you are leading?

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Yeah, it's a great example. I'm taking it in. I'm using my eyes.

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I'm listening better. I've got high-def headphones in so I can hear all the

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little nuances in Kevin's voice.

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Yeah, I think this is really good advice to people. That curiosity part is something

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that That a lot of people overlook.

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And I think you're right to point out the confusion with sympathy because people

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are like, oh, that's too bad.

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And it even sounds cold. Right. Right. Versus like. Tell me more.

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Why is that? What do you think about that?

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What would you do? Because the right combination of open ended and closed ended

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questions, there is a skill set and a technique to get down to the bottom of things.

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Some of us in the audience maybe have heard of the five why routine,

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you know, why, why, why, why, why, to get down to the bottom of it.

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I can give an example of that if we need it.

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Yeah, I think that'd be good, Kevin. Yeah, I'll give that example.

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Asking more questions to be really curious, like, so what about Harvard professors

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when I was in the psychology degree program at Harvard?

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They said, this week, we're going to think about how we think.

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What? We can think about that. So meta, like, slow down, professor.

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We're going to think about how we think,

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but that's a really deep notion because now you're really diving deeper into

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who you are and how you're built and the reason why you're built the way you're

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built and your experiences connected.

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Now, to the show. Welcome to the show, Kevin Ball.

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Kevin, Kevin, my goodness. From the first time I saw you to now,

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it has been a dream to have you come on the show and talk about your experiences.

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I don't think I've had a scrum master with your depth, experience,

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challenge, expertise on the show yet.

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So this, I'm going to feel like I'm buckling in right now because I'm going

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to learn something that I'm going to take forward starting tomorrow.

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Oh, man. Thank you for those kind words. Thank you for those kind words.

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Yeah, you're welcome. I was looking at your background and I want to say,

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you know, thank you for your service. I saw you served in the Marines.

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Yes. Man, look at all this. One thing Kevin definitely probably has too much of is discipline.

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Something that a lot of people that we might work with or know don't have.

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I was, true story. And we'll get into the shows.

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We were setting up for an event. This was a community event of volunteers.

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And one of the individuals said, you know, I just don't have a lot of discipline.

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And I think that they're contrasting the self with me. And I said, you know what?

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It's not healthy to compare your levels to my levels.

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I've honed this over a long period of time. And wherever you start,

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that's where you start. That's right. Yeah.

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So, Kevin, I'm thinking because of your experience, it would be fun to scrum this episode live.

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Ooh, I like it. Yeah, I've got a list of things that I want to pick your brain

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on, and then I'm going to visually show some scrum cards flying up on somewhere on the screen.

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Oh, I love it. A little scrum board, how we're going to get this going.

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But I'm thinking probably, and you can tell me no.

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I think the first place to start before we go into the weeds,

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what is the most important thing for you to give to the audience by the end of the show?

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The most important thing. Well, what I want to do is make sure that I answer

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your questions to the best of my ability.

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To make sure that your listeners, your viewers, your followers get something

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out of what we're saying and the way that you set us up in terms of how we're

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going to actually scrum this conversation might be a good start for us, right?

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I hope that they find some value in our conversation and that's what it's going to be.

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It's going to be a nice conversation, but I'm really looking forward to see

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how you want to scrum this conversation.

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Yeah, so I've got the goal, Thanks to you, you gave me a perfect goal.

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So the goal I'll restate it.

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So make sure I heard you, right? This is everything Kevin and I are doing is

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normal, everyday scrum. So for those that don't know.

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Listeners get something out of what we share using Scrum to share a nice conversation.

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So that conversation is going to have value for the listener.

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And you and I are going to enjoy ourselves simultaneously, a twofold goal.

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Copy that. So I'm thinking, you know, here's some topics I'm going to,

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I'm just going to machine gun you some topics based on that goal you just said.

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And you tell me if it's in or out.

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Should we talk about career journey and philosophy?

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Yes. Okay. That's in. Should we talk about agile and program management?

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Sure it's like it's a little reluctance i'm gonna put like a

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little maybe so i'm listening i'm

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using all of my senses ladies and gentlemen yeah so

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maybe so but i want the audience to pay attention to when felipe asked me those

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questions those are really broad topics and you know for me i want to dig in

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a little bit more about the specifics of those two topics that's why i said

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sure so it's sort of open-ended that means i'm curious to learn more oh i've

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i've done my homework kevin i've got,

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questions in those categories to drill down if

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they make it if they make it so i

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mean people that don't know i do my homework i do my due diligence like

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i just don't hit record and then see to cross my

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fingers and hope we give you something good this show has not been that way

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not even day one so another area that might be is this could be hot i think

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this might this might actually be a hot topic leadership and organizational

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change absolutely yeah so that's That's a hottie. That one's,

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I think I'm going to move that one up.

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Oh, great. And then we'll check. What we're doing right now,

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folks, we're prioritizing. We're pulling the goals out. Felipe has something in his head.

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We're just organizing. And the key thing, what folks need to remember is that

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we're being adaptable, right?

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We're adapting to what we're both saying and reacting to each other.

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And actually, in my book, The Invisible Visible Us, See Yourself as Others See

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You, that's on Amazon and Felipe, I'll do a link later. I blended two frameworks.

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The OODA loop and emotional intelligence.

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I call it the Thinking EI OODA, and we'll get deeper into that.

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And I'll be able to unpack a lot of things you're going to ask me with that framework.

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Oh, I love that. Thinking of frameworks is very powerful, people.

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If you haven't practiced thinking of frameworks, I don't know why you're not doing it now.

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I mean, this whole show flows in a framework that in case you can't guess, it's Scrum.

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All right, so now, of course, we've got challenges and solutions because I love

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talking about problems. You know, I was just talking yesterday to a friend that

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they're asking me, like, do you like to gossip? And I said, unfortunately, I do.

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Unfortunately, I would admit it. I admit it. I do like a little bit,

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a little bit of gossip, not, you know, not untruthful things.

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So I'm going to put that ahead of agile program management because I think problems

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could give us some good cover and flavor for the future. Absolutely.

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And they might just be synonymous.

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Yeah, might actually be. and then i've got you know based on the goal we have

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now i'm even going to self-select impact and outcomes i feel like i should take

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out because it's going to be it's going to happen.

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Perfect love it so i run out of questions but that's not that's not going to happen,

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then i'd like to pick your brain on insights and trends okay and then we've

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got see how he said okay like he was like that stays low so i'm not i he didn't

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say it in a way that i'm moving it up

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higher in the list and we'll check what the priority list is now then i've got

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uh personal development and growth love it see that that one that's going to

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go higher just because of how i'm reacting just to kevin he's observing he's

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orienting he's deciding and acting folks,

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then i would like to talk about your engagements okay perfect okay so then that's

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been maybe a nice close and then my my out question my final question out of

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the show will be based on on everything we heard,

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give the audience like one little nugget of advice to go do something because we like action.

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Love it. All right. So here let me confirm. So our goal is listeners get something

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out of what we share. We're going to share a fun conversation.

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We'll start with leadership and organizational change. And I've got questions

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here that Kevin can't see yet because we're just prioritizing.

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This is the new priority.

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Then we'll talk about career journey and philosophy. Then from there,

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we'll shift into challenges and solutions, then agile and program management.

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I still have the maybe there because if we get to that point,

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I'm like, eh, I know Kevin's not in love with it, so we can let that go.

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And then we bring it home with personal development, growth,

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insights, and trends, his engagements, and then we'll probably run out of time in all reality.

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Because that's just how awesome it's going to be. So I think we're going to

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start, I'll throw you a curveball right away, Kevin.

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What's something interesting that happened this week where you felt like you

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personally grew? You grew.

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Well, you know, I really had to tap into my emotional intelligence this week.

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My house cleaning crew was cleaning my home because I'm renting out my house.

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And the two upstairs bathrooms started bubbling and water started shooting out of them.

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Not really crazy, not like in a movie, but it started bubbling up.

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We're going like, what's going on? We can't flush the toilets.

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So I called the company that installed the equipment in my home. It's a new build.

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And they said, oh, we can't come out until tomorrow.

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Now, tomorrow was the day my renter was going to move into the apartment.

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Apartment so let that sink in folks be my

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persona for a second you're a homeowner cleaning crews

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cleaning the house you can't use the water things are flooding we're dry vacuuming

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we're dry vacuum in the basement and i called the company that installed the

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equipment and they said they can't come tomorrow but your renter is coming at

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nine o'clock the next day yeah i'm already starting to feel angry right away.

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Right, right. So speaking of the framework, right?

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Observe, orient, decide, and act.

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Pulling in the emotional intelligence pillars, self-regulation,

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self-management, empathy, right?

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So I had to pull all of those skills in to deal with this problem.

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So in order to deal with the problem, my buddy, my property manager said,

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hey, Kevin, And there's another company that could probably come out tonight

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because my blood was starting to boil, but I had to stay calm because everybody,

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I have like, you know, seven, eight people in the house doing things.

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So they're all looking at me. I'm the leader now.

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I'm the homeowner. I'm the, I'm the probably donor.

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Right. Right. Right. But with my scrum master, I had really fast as well.

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We know that's not really a dual role. We're just one person,

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but I did a split personality thing on the spot. He said, call the other company.

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So we called the other company.

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They come out. I get a little happy because they came out fast.

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Right. But more bad news came, Felipe. What happened? Oh, we don't know if this

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is a city problem or your responsibility because we dug six feet in the ground

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and your pipes might be broken.

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That's about a $10,000 job.

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Ooh. So let that sink in, audience. Think about where you would be emotionally,

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7 o'clock at night, knowing you've got 12, 14 hours to square this away before

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your new tenant moves in.

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He's already signed the lease and give me the deposit like it's a done things

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get even worse they say well we gotta call the city out now will they come tonight

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well sometimes it takes them a couple days to get out so I'm telling you this story about how.

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A person's emotions can get away with them, and you start making decisions emotionally.

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What I really had to do was dig in deep and make more intellectual,

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analytic decisions by asking a lot of questions.

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We learn by asking questions. So I asked the plumbers, the two folks that came

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out, a bunch of questions about the scenario.

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And I actually kind of scrummed those folks as well. Yeah.

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Can't work finals, right? There's a whole bunch of handoffs.

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But just to speed the story up really quickly, the city came out and said,

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it's our problem. We'll fix it, Kevin.

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They came up the next morning, blew the pipes out. The renter moved in. My tenant moved in.

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Everything was fine. So sort of a mini long-winded story, but just to show you

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how that's a rollercoaster of emotions and how we have to invoke emotional intelligence,

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self-regulation, and also empathy with the people that are around me in order to get the job done.

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I like about that story too, Kevin, is that you were through empathy, never blaming.

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Blaming is something like super, I think it must be ingrained in us from early on.

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We get in trouble and it just carries forward, but it's totally useless to blame.

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Like once you get older it has no value because it

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doesn't create action it just assigns responsibility

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temporarily and it's not it's not permanent so

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you were you're pretty cool and quick to to ask now what i just got out of curiosity

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like what what did you scrum with that plumber what did what sequence did you

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change with them and i'm sure you optimized the sequence absolutely it was more

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with the city folks because they said well we're going to put the order in I

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said, can I have the order number?

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Oh, we can't give you the order number. Just use your address.

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I said, who are you going to give it to?

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Well, I'm going to give it to my supervisor, and my supervisor is going to give

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it to the other department supervisor, and then they're going to put it into the system.

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So let that sink in about how many handoffs there were.

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Right? So what I did was just give them examples. I said, I wonder what it would

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look like if you could put the order in right now directly into the system without all the handoffs.

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He says, Kevin, that's a really good idea. We never really thought about that before.

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The same thing with the original plumbing company. The first person that came

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out did not have all the equipment. He had to call someone else out because they're specialists.

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They only do a thing.

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So I went to the whole T-shaped, you know, thing with them, how you're expert

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in deep in one area, you can learn and teach other stuff.

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I think we all learned something that night, myself, the plumbing company,

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and the city workers as well.

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That's a great story of learning and respect for people too.

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I appreciate that, Kevin.

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Definitely, if you're not following Kevin on LinkedIn already,

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check the show notes to get that direct link to follow Kevin on LinkedIn.

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He's putting out some really cool posts, especially using some AI stuff.

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I've been looking at some of those.

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He's got some whole mind things happening here that I think are good for anybody in any industry.

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So while you all are going down there, you know, while you're down there in

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the show notes, don't feel bad about hitting like a like button or leaving us a comment.

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So the Kevin and I can get some feedback about what you really like about the

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show as you listen in. Right. That's so good. Love rapid feedback.

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We do. That's the theme for the year. Everybody rapid feedback, rapid feedback.

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It'll be the theme of the show. We'll call it rapid feedback.

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Back with Kevin Ball. Don't drop it.

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Okay. So we got, so I want to dive in right away, Kevin, with you on leadership

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and organizational change, because this is a topic that, you know, everybody,

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we were talking about blame at the beginning of the show and everybody wants

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to always point the finger to somebody above them or below them.

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And they never point the finger this way. And I remember I was talking to an

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old carpenter superintendent.

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He's like, you know, when you point the finger at me there's three

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fingers pointing back to you one pointing at

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me and one pointing up sometimes depending on how your how your hand is right

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it's like you're three times as responsible for whatever's happening so he's

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like stop pointing at me that was a good good lesson learned i've heard that

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one before too that's a good one right but i want to start with asking you know

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what leadership qualities you talk a lot about emotional intelligence,

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so maybe you want to go there but what leadership qualities you think are essential

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for driving effective change in a team that can be small or across a department

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or larger organizations.

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Okay, I'm going to give you a few words, topic words that I think are good leadership skills.

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Empathy is one. We've heard this one before, right? We hear it a lot. It's about empathy.

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Right. So let me unpack empathy a little bit. Empathy is not sympathy.

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Empathy is really putting yourself in that person's place without any judgment.

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It's really hard for human beings not to be judgmental because it's a survival

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technique. When you're out in the woods, you hear something crunching and maybe

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something coming to you, you're going to fight or flight.

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You're walking down the street, you sense something, you walk into a party,

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into a room, this is what we do naturally.

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But when you're a leader in your organization and you have a team,

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you want to have that empathy and really draw a blank in your mind and be super curious.

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Empathy, be super curious and listen more than you speak.

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My dad told me one time, he says, Kevin, you have a set of ears,

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set of eyes and a mouth. He said, use them proportionately.

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I was like, wow, that's really need that. Use them proportionately.

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But the proportion word made me think about the OODA, like when do you listen

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more, speak more, and really be in the game with that person in front of you who you are leading?

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Yeah, it's a great example. I'm taking it in. I'm using my eyes.

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I'm listening better. I've got high-def headphones in so I can hear all the

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little nuances in Kevin's voice.

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Yeah, I think this is really good advice to people. That curiosity part is something

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that That a lot of people overlook.

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And I think you're right to point out the confusion with sympathy because people

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are like, oh, that's too bad.

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And it even sounds cold. Right. Right. Versus like. Tell me more.

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Why is that? What do you think about that?

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What would you do? Because asking the right combination of open-ended and closed-ended questions.

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There is a skill set and a technique to get down to the bottom of things.

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Some of us in the audience maybe have heard of the five why routine.

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You know, why, why, why, why, why to get down to the bottom of it.

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I can give an example of that if we need it.

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Yeah, I think that'd be good, Kevin. Yeah, I'll give that example.

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Asking more questions to be really curious. Like, so what about Harvard professors

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when I was in the psychology degree program at Harvard?

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This week, we're going to think about how we think.

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What? We can think about that. That's so meta. Slow down, professor.

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We're going to think about how we think, but that's a really deep notion because

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now you're really diving deeper into who you are and how you're built and the

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reason why you're built the way you're built and your experiences,

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you bring that to the table, right?

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And that's where our judgment comes, because we're coming from that world.

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I'm talking to Felipe. He's coming from X amount of years.

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I don't know how long he's been on the planet and how long I've been on the

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planet. We're bringing all that stuff to the table.

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But the key is we need to park it. Let's keep the table clear.

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Let's build the table together with the conversation by being curious,

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by asking open-ended questions and really having true empathy,

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not sympathy. to think really quickly on the five right routines.

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So this is in one of our decks. You've probably seen this before.

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Persons walk in the park, they cut their foot on a piece of glass.

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Oh, what happened? Why did they cut themselves on a piece of glass?

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Oh, well, here's one reason why the people who supposed to clean the park didn't clean the park up.

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Why didn't they clean the park up? Oh, city funding got cut.

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So they had to cut back on people who go out and clean the park. Why was the funding cut?

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Well, the funding was cut because some other political entity of the federal

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government had to slash budgets to, you know, move money around.

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So it wasn't just, oh, some person was dirty and just threw it on the ground

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and didn't care. That might have been the reason.

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But, you know, things happen. So going through that five why routine and also

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thinking about Simon, a cynic who talks about start with why.

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That's a question that we always want to ask. Oh, yeah, we're going to do this project.

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We're going to do this thing. My question is, why are we doing it? Where's the value in it?

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And this is a perfect 5Y example. I was in the park this morning with my son.

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He has to do volunteer work.

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And we had a broken 40 that could definitely cut somebody. It's just a little bit off the path.

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A 40 is a 40 ounce of beer, folks, if you don't know what that is.

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For those of you that didn't grow up like I did, you don't know what a 40 is.

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Your life has been very sheltered.

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And for those of you listening to the show that do 40s for lunch,

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I know the type of good life that you have.

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Yeah so yeah it's a it was a big bottle broken i can't remember the brand on

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the label and my son's like wow it's a good thing that we we're picking this up as volunteers,

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and the reason why we started this volunteer thing it's a shout out to dry creek

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conservance conservancy dcc they told us like the reason we're out here cleaning

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up is we're trying to make the habitat better for the salmon because the salmon

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run in this creek need a clean habitat I tell you,

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it's like the salmon run all the way to here, 100 miles in from the ocean.

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And we found that when these areas are cleaner, we see a direct proportion in

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salmon population numbers increasing.

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And so, like, picking up this trash actually increases salmon population. I was like, wow.

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That's really amazing how that's correlated. And that brings me to how everything

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in the universe is tied together.

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Just a little side meta statement here. We are not separate from the universe. we are a part of it.

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Every mineral, every cell, every piece of speck of whatever that exists in the

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universe, we are a part of it, not separate from it.

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And I say that to say that we as human beings, sometimes we separate ourselves,

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we box ourselves, we draw lines and borders and barriers.

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As we know what this work we do, we try to break those silos down and break

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those barriers down so that we can work better together and make all of our

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work visible. Thank you.

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Yeah, I love that. So we've got that good five why that you can use.

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We've got empathy with curiosity. It's super powerful.

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What else is good for a leader to have? What's another good leader quality trait?

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And everyone listening, these traits can be developed.

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These are not innate, born in. If your level's here, you can get it to here.

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You can increase this dynamic.

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Absolutely. We all have ideas. We all have ideas.

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If you're a leader in an organization and people are looking at you to lead,

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it's really important to know how to articulate your ideas and why you have the idea.

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With that, the whole proverbial roll up your sleeves and get in there and do

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the work with them side by side so that there's no big U's and little I's, if you will.

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Right. You get that statement. That sounds like a story. That sounds like a

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scrum story right there, Kevin. Right, exactly.

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And another thing I've heard in the industry, we never want that hippo effect,

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the highest paid person's opinion.

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The person who may be making the least amount of money in the company could

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have the biggest and brightest idea.

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So I say that to us leaders, don't suck all the air out of the room.

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Call and push your people to the front.

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If person A has an idea, you know what, that's a great idea.

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Come to the meeting with me and sit down and tell that story.

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But what you see happen, well, this is just for the C-suite executives,

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or this is just for the managers. Oh, this is just for the leaders.

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So now we're already segmenting ourselves and our thinking and our thought leadership

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versus being open, just like the universe really is.

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The universe is really open and we're in it. That's right. Together.

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Kevin, it's true. There's really no natural borders that we can't traverse as

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evidenced by people and every climate, every environment, every geography.

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And there's all these interconnected things. I really like that.

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That's a powerful thing for people to think about.

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And I think that's a shift where a lot of leaders get put into position sometimes

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because they're really good subject matter experts or practitioners,

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but not necessarily have these other social components that are kind of invisible.

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Everything you've mentioned is invisible to see. You might see examples of it,

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but they're so transient.

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You couldn't point at that and say, like, look at that leader being empathetic, right?

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You have to be in there, hear it, be sensing it in the space with them to really

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know that they're operating with empathy.

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Absolutely. And what you're getting to, you know, what Felipe is talking about,

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it's invisible, but we can feel it.

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You can go to a room and it's silent and you can feel the energy.

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If you're standing in front of an audience and you're speaking,

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you're sitting down at the board

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table or in a meeting room and you're speaking, you can feel the energy.

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Not only can you feel the energy, we can also use our body language and watching

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body language and being able to adapt and to react with people or how they're moving.

404
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Some of this might just go right by some of us, but if you notice your audience,

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oh, they may be in a certain position.

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I can feel when Felipe has a question, like, Felipe, I can feel the wheels are

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going. What's your question?

408
00:29:37,896 --> 00:29:39,996
Oh, thanks, Kevin. Yeah, I got this question about.

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So we have to use that sensing thing that you talked about.

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Kevin, you know, it's so much fun to talk to somebody with a high empathy because

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that ability to see somebody and feel a question coming from them is something

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that I've been doing a lot with, especially with all these virtual meetings.

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Looking at faces, I'm like, you know what, Kevin, I think you're ready with

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your question. Go ahead.

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But sometimes, you know, with the technology, you can see people come off mute.

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They'll like spark it on and off. And you're like, oh, hold on.

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I just saw you come off mute. Why don't you go ahead?

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Absolutely. And this is a whole nother way we've adapted, right?

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Because right now we have a medium shot, right, where I Zoom during the podcast.

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So it's just, you know, midsection body up.

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But when we're in person, you get the whole picture. We get to see the entire,

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you know, body language and body movement. them.

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And actually research shows that more than half, I think it's closer to 70%

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of what's being communicated is in our body language, not the words that are

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coming out of our mouth. Yeah. Now you got me curious, Kevin.

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Kevin, you got me curious. I'm sorry I'm cutting you off. I'm just getting excited.

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My energy is going up. Are you doing this show standing up?

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No, I'm sitting down. So you're moving around so much.

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I was thinking that you're standing up and I was like, man, Kevin is standing

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on my show. Well, there's a certain thing inside of me that's standing up,

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and that's my energy, my happiness, my desire to really be here and be present with you.

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Yeah, and you're making it feel so much better. Now, with all that,

433
00:31:07,936 --> 00:31:11,596
are there any other leadership characters or characteristics that you think

434
00:31:11,596 --> 00:31:14,916
are important for people thinking about that they could develop in themselves?

435
00:31:14,916 --> 00:31:18,676
When you're working with people, and you definitely go back to what you have

436
00:31:18,676 --> 00:31:23,116
in your book, what are things where you work with newer leaders where they're

437
00:31:23,116 --> 00:31:26,296
underdeveloped in these skills? Where do you see some underdevelopment, bigger opportunity?

438
00:31:27,156 --> 00:31:30,716
Yeah, I would say be honest. Be transparent.

439
00:31:32,756 --> 00:31:36,956
Don't be self-deprecating, but also know that you have limits.

440
00:31:37,716 --> 00:31:41,976
And with your limitations and the people that you hired around you, pull them in.

441
00:31:41,976 --> 00:31:46,276
Right you know the whole weakest link makes the chain you know break whatever

442
00:31:46,276 --> 00:31:52,436
right right so when we see leaders who are empathetic when we see leaders who

443
00:31:52,436 --> 00:31:55,216
are honest open and transparent about where they are,

444
00:31:56,486 --> 00:31:59,126
I think people who look at them go, you know, I like this leader because they're

445
00:31:59,126 --> 00:32:03,926
open, they're honest, they're really honest about what their limitations are.

446
00:32:04,126 --> 00:32:08,126
You know, they really, they pulled me in because I had that skill set and they may not.

447
00:32:08,526 --> 00:32:12,786
They're showing me that we are really a team. They're the leader of the team,

448
00:32:12,866 --> 00:32:13,566
right? They're the quarterback.

449
00:32:13,846 --> 00:32:18,106
They may be calling the plays, but sometime I may have a good play that I can

450
00:32:18,106 --> 00:32:21,546
write in the playbook, or sometimes I might have a good idea that might incorporate

451
00:32:21,546 --> 00:32:26,446
to further the mission of the organization,

452
00:32:26,646 --> 00:32:29,966
the goal of the organization, whatever that might be, wherever you are working.

453
00:32:30,986 --> 00:32:35,586
I've had trouble as a newer leader earlier in my career and even on my podcast

454
00:32:35,586 --> 00:32:40,386
with self-deprecation because as a facilitator, you learn about it early.

455
00:32:41,006 --> 00:32:43,866
You can use it to modulate the energy with a group.

456
00:32:44,206 --> 00:32:47,886
You can always pick on yourself. No one's going to get mad if you pick on yourself.

457
00:32:47,886 --> 00:32:50,806
Right so like i took that skill and then incorrectly

458
00:32:50,806 --> 00:32:54,366
used it some of the earlier versions of my show and

459
00:32:54,366 --> 00:32:57,046
i was editing my show i kept thinking like man i'm so

460
00:32:57,046 --> 00:32:59,706
hard on this poor host this poor host is

461
00:32:59,706 --> 00:33:04,466
just getting beat up by the host and i had to change how i talk to my guests

462
00:33:04,466 --> 00:33:09,546
and think this is not that type of thing this is different and where's the value

463
00:33:09,546 --> 00:33:14,286
and i actually had to think about how i was thinking i had this habit of self-deprecation

464
00:33:14,286 --> 00:33:18,426
kevin and And this thing would play like a record every time I got to a certain scenario.

465
00:33:18,506 --> 00:33:21,986
I can almost pinpoint exactly where in the conversation I was just about to,

466
00:33:22,006 --> 00:33:26,066
oh, it's going to be right there. And then back and pull it back. Yeah.

467
00:33:26,626 --> 00:33:30,186
Understood. That's good. Well, it's good. Well, what Felipe is talking about

468
00:33:30,186 --> 00:33:33,006
right now is how he has evolved.

469
00:33:33,826 --> 00:33:40,326
How you, Felipe, have done your rapid feedback for incremental improvement over

470
00:33:40,326 --> 00:33:44,966
time. And we all know that it takes small incremental changes,

471
00:33:45,026 --> 00:33:48,746
and then we can see the ship move.

472
00:33:49,326 --> 00:33:53,666
We can't turn the big ship in one fell swoop. It just takes a little bit by a little bit.

473
00:33:53,726 --> 00:33:58,946
And before you know it, those movements, those patterns, those habits do become

474
00:33:58,946 --> 00:34:01,306
innate. And now we're curious for more stuff.

475
00:34:01,586 --> 00:34:05,946
Like, what else can we learn? What other hard problem do we need to solve to

476
00:34:05,946 --> 00:34:06,926
take it to the next level?

477
00:34:07,066 --> 00:34:10,486
Because you know how the diagram works. You know, when the arrow goes up,

478
00:34:10,526 --> 00:34:12,206
it kind of flattens for a little bit.

479
00:34:12,286 --> 00:34:15,286
And then what does it take to go up another step? And that flattens.

480
00:34:15,286 --> 00:34:19,806
And then another step, we can go into infinity because the universe is endless.

481
00:34:20,486 --> 00:34:24,306
Yeah. No, when they say here's an oxymoron, the sky is the limit.

482
00:34:27,186 --> 00:34:33,126
What's beyond the sky? Right. Like the, like the movie. I like that one. Yeah. Yeah.

483
00:34:34,422 --> 00:34:39,802
So I would love to hear an example where you were working with a leader and

484
00:34:39,802 --> 00:34:43,982
you, with your coaching or help or guidance, or maybe it was you inside the

485
00:34:43,982 --> 00:34:46,502
organization, because I know you've been a leader inside of many organizations.

486
00:34:47,262 --> 00:34:51,962
Where can you see a fingerprint of Kevin Ball with a significant transformation?

487
00:34:52,742 --> 00:34:57,062
So I think that is, I'm super curious to see. And I know you've worked in finance

488
00:34:57,062 --> 00:35:01,102
and some other industries, and they're famously resistant to change.

489
00:35:01,882 --> 00:35:07,522
They are. They really are. All right, well, I can tell you one, two, three stories.

490
00:35:08,502 --> 00:35:11,262
Actually, four stories. I'm just going to name the industries,

491
00:35:11,282 --> 00:35:13,902
not the companies. Okay. Higher ed.

492
00:35:14,622 --> 00:35:16,542
Well, I can say Harvard because I teach at Harvard.

493
00:35:17,642 --> 00:35:22,922
So there's one story from Harvard where people that I used to work with,

494
00:35:23,102 --> 00:35:26,582
and there's a thread in this story from these different people.

495
00:35:27,182 --> 00:35:31,082
I would get an email or a note on LinkedIn or a text saying,

496
00:35:31,082 --> 00:35:35,342
saying, hey, Kevin, I channeled some of that stuff that we learned together

497
00:35:35,342 --> 00:35:37,962
that you taught us in this or X situation.

498
00:35:38,742 --> 00:35:42,682
Same thing happened when I was doing consulting. Same thing happened again when

499
00:35:42,682 --> 00:35:43,602
I was working in healthcare.

500
00:35:43,902 --> 00:35:48,282
And more recently, when I was working in fintech, I would get those little notes

501
00:35:48,282 --> 00:35:50,962
of the footprint that was left behind.

502
00:35:51,062 --> 00:35:54,902
But I want to just say that we collectively made that footprint together.

503
00:35:55,562 --> 00:35:59,182
And the reason why I said we made the footprint print together because they

504
00:35:59,182 --> 00:36:02,842
were willing to change. They were willing to improve.

505
00:36:03,242 --> 00:36:07,282
They were willing to try something new. I had one leader in the fintech industry

506
00:36:07,282 --> 00:36:12,042
made a comment to my manager saying that, Kevin really makes me think a little

507
00:36:12,042 --> 00:36:16,082
bit differently and challenges me in such a way, right?

508
00:36:16,182 --> 00:36:20,982
So we could have more thought leadership together versus, and some of us do this.

509
00:36:21,042 --> 00:36:23,102
I did it before in the past. It was like, okay, leader, sure.

510
00:36:23,202 --> 00:36:24,902
Yeah. Okay. Yep. I agree with you.

511
00:36:25,422 --> 00:36:29,102
Wait a minute, like, let's really think about this together and go through it

512
00:36:29,102 --> 00:36:31,982
together and add your perspective to it.

513
00:36:32,062 --> 00:36:34,962
And as leaders, we want to be receptive to that.

514
00:36:36,403 --> 00:36:41,443
As leaders, we also want to help implement it. As leaders, we also want to be accountable.

515
00:36:42,283 --> 00:36:44,923
And like you say, you first started up with this blame game,

516
00:36:45,103 --> 00:36:47,963
right? Because we naturally do that. Well, that's Felipe's fault. That's his department.

517
00:36:49,163 --> 00:36:52,783
Versus saying, let's get down to the root of the issue or the problem.

518
00:36:53,223 --> 00:36:57,703
And usually it's the system, not the people, the way the system is constructed.

519
00:36:58,883 --> 00:37:03,563
I'm always hard on the process and easy on the people. People are working in

520
00:37:03,563 --> 00:37:06,683
the system rarely. Rarely, I mean, I'm going to just ask it to the audience.

521
00:37:06,743 --> 00:37:08,123
Audience, I want you to think about this.

522
00:37:08,203 --> 00:37:15,803
When's the last time you were working and somebody said, what can we do to change how we're working?

523
00:37:16,763 --> 00:37:19,763
It's a super rare question. Let that sink in.

524
00:37:22,063 --> 00:37:25,503
But all the time when people are like, well, I need you to, we need to work

525
00:37:25,503 --> 00:37:30,523
harder or we focus on the KPIs and metrics and I need more widgets. I need more widgets.

526
00:37:30,783 --> 00:37:33,563
What can we do to just get more widgets, not change how we work?

527
00:37:33,563 --> 00:37:37,983
Kevin and I have seen where we can influence system processes,

528
00:37:38,023 --> 00:37:43,703
and you can double, triple, quadruple, quintuple your throughput with changing

529
00:37:43,703 --> 00:37:46,003
processes, but it's a different view.

530
00:37:46,363 --> 00:37:51,323
I want to come back now to your next story, Kevin, because I want to pull these

531
00:37:51,323 --> 00:37:53,383
threads and see where we go with these.

532
00:37:54,263 --> 00:37:58,263
So the next story, when I was working in healthcare for a big organization,

533
00:37:58,543 --> 00:38:03,263
and I got a phone call from a person that I really, really worked closely with.

534
00:38:03,563 --> 00:38:09,303
And this person brought up the idea about handoffs and breaking down silos.

535
00:38:10,063 --> 00:38:14,323
This was one thing that really stuck with this person. And they actually moved

536
00:38:14,323 --> 00:38:17,523
on, working in the same industry but for a different organization,

537
00:38:17,783 --> 00:38:21,023
and brought that thinking to the new organization.

538
00:38:21,023 --> 00:38:26,463
It was really hard for that second set of people that she worked with to really

539
00:38:26,463 --> 00:38:31,783
grapple what that meant because some of us, so many of us,

540
00:38:31,803 --> 00:38:37,903
are just really sitting down in our own bubble with a very myopic view of what we need to do.

541
00:38:37,963 --> 00:38:41,523
Like, this is my job. This is my role. This is what I'm doing.

542
00:38:41,923 --> 00:38:47,483
And not looking on either side of the table. And I'll bring you to a story that

543
00:38:47,483 --> 00:38:49,883
I did in Boston in a surgery room.

544
00:38:51,041 --> 00:38:56,821
They wanted to decrease the turnaround time after surgery, from when the patient

545
00:38:56,821 --> 00:38:58,941
is wheeled out to the new patient that was wheeled in.

546
00:38:59,341 --> 00:39:01,581
I worked with this hospital for two weeks.

547
00:39:02,041 --> 00:39:07,381
The turnaround time was over an hour. So we can imagine how expensive a surgery room is, right?

548
00:39:07,401 --> 00:39:10,981
It costs a lot of money for elective surgeries and more complicated,

549
00:39:11,241 --> 00:39:14,021
you know, the mess that they are in, but the more money that they make, right?

550
00:39:14,441 --> 00:39:17,541
So after talking to the cleaning crew,

551
00:39:17,781 --> 00:39:22,621
working with the surgery team, and just having Having simple conversations and

552
00:39:22,621 --> 00:39:28,201
doing what I call innovative sprints, doing the daily scrum, the sprint review,

553
00:39:28,361 --> 00:39:34,821
the retro, and building a backlog in three minutes between the surgeries to

554
00:39:34,821 --> 00:39:36,221
make small improvements.

555
00:39:36,701 --> 00:39:39,541
Over a couple of weeks, they got it down to 30 minutes.

556
00:39:39,881 --> 00:39:44,781
Wow. Which is a $600 million evaluation over a year.

557
00:39:44,961 --> 00:39:48,101
Just saving time and people talking to each other.

558
00:39:49,161 --> 00:39:54,881
There's the perfect example i want to throw that 600 million dollar mini scrum

559
00:39:54,881 --> 00:39:59,621
done in two weeks and that time period matters like i think for the hospital

560
00:39:59,621 --> 00:40:03,601
you can do a lot with 600 million dollars you can build another surgery center

561
00:40:03,601 --> 00:40:07,821
easily exactly or paid better dividends.

562
00:40:11,621 --> 00:40:15,561
It depends right it's up to them but they'll have the option right they don't

563
00:40:15,561 --> 00:40:18,321
have the option now Well, what's the next story, Kevin?

564
00:40:19,221 --> 00:40:23,081
I want to take you to a story back to when I was really young.

565
00:40:23,821 --> 00:40:27,181
This is a really great leadership story. There's a lot in this story,

566
00:40:27,241 --> 00:40:30,781
I believe. I'll just tell the story and then I'll have you unpack it.

567
00:40:30,781 --> 00:40:31,741
I'll have you connect the dots.

568
00:40:32,541 --> 00:40:37,541
How about that? I'm ready. 18 years old, signing for the United States Marine Corps.

569
00:40:38,221 --> 00:40:43,501
Go to Parris Island and I get off the bus and go, what did I get myself into? to.

570
00:40:44,921 --> 00:40:48,681
If anyone has seen the movie Full Metal Jacket, if you have,

571
00:40:48,741 --> 00:40:50,701
start thinking about that movie if you've seen it.

572
00:40:51,001 --> 00:40:54,921
If you haven't seen it, you're into military movies, it's an intense movie.

573
00:40:55,661 --> 00:40:59,001
But the movie really depicted what we did on Parris Island.

574
00:40:59,121 --> 00:41:06,081
So back to my story, after about a month or so, I figured out this is not a physical challenge.

575
00:41:06,581 --> 00:41:12,141
This is an emotional emotional, and intellectual challenge of what the Marine

576
00:41:12,141 --> 00:41:17,561
Corps puts you through in order to condition you to be a Marine and be a military

577
00:41:17,561 --> 00:41:19,581
person who possibly might have to go into combat.

578
00:41:20,401 --> 00:41:24,561
Once I understood that it was an emotional and intellectual challenge,

579
00:41:24,901 --> 00:41:29,561
I started using my early developed emotional, my emotional intelligence and

580
00:41:29,561 --> 00:41:31,021
became the squad beater.

581
00:41:31,521 --> 00:41:35,781
After the first six Six weeks of boot camp. Boot camp is three months long.

582
00:41:36,401 --> 00:41:40,461
Started in September. Around October, became the squad leader.

583
00:41:40,461 --> 00:41:44,021
Was the squad leader all the way through until...

584
00:41:45,577 --> 00:41:49,157
I'm going to get to the until in a second. As time went on in boot camp,

585
00:41:49,357 --> 00:41:50,477
they give you more responsibility.

586
00:41:50,857 --> 00:41:57,937
You could be alone a lot more. I could march my soldiers to the next spot.

587
00:41:58,037 --> 00:41:59,557
I can take them to breakfast by ourselves.

588
00:41:59,737 --> 00:42:04,857
We can go do that. We can be a little more independent, even though eyes are always on you.

589
00:42:05,577 --> 00:42:11,417
Going back to emotional intelligence, I let it slip away because the next door

590
00:42:11,417 --> 00:42:13,237
then over, there was another platoon.

591
00:42:13,337 --> 00:42:16,757
They were like two or three weeks ahead of us. And they were sharp.

592
00:42:17,157 --> 00:42:21,537
If you know anything about the Marine Corps, our uniforms are the cleanest, the most crisp.

593
00:42:21,817 --> 00:42:26,457
We have discipline. When we march, our drill instructor said, I want to hear one boot.

594
00:42:27,177 --> 00:42:28,997
It was 50 of us, Felipe.

595
00:42:30,217 --> 00:42:34,537
Let that sink in, audience. When we marched, we want to hear one boot.

596
00:42:34,837 --> 00:42:40,577
A little side story here. In business, we want to hear one boot.

597
00:42:41,317 --> 00:42:46,617
Meaning that we all know why we're here and what we're doing. and how are we doing it?

598
00:42:47,097 --> 00:42:51,717
Back to the story, I was a little jealous because the platoon ahead of us was

599
00:42:51,717 --> 00:42:55,717
a little bit better and the platoon leader ahead of us would always tease us.

600
00:42:56,117 --> 00:43:02,177
I ignored him for a very, very long time until one day, the picture story, right?

601
00:43:02,217 --> 00:43:05,037
Once upon a time, there was a Marine Corps leader.

602
00:43:05,897 --> 00:43:11,797
He did great until one day he broke rank and was going to walk over to the next

603
00:43:11,797 --> 00:43:14,137
platoon and start a fight with the other leader.

604
00:43:14,877 --> 00:43:18,637
I barely got a foot away from my squad and the drill instructor,

605
00:43:18,857 --> 00:43:20,717
he just popped out of nowhere. It was like magic.

606
00:43:20,857 --> 00:43:24,057
Like, how did you appear here in front of me?

607
00:43:24,517 --> 00:43:29,117
And what he said, and here's the lesson, give the pole to, I'm going to say

608
00:43:29,117 --> 00:43:31,457
you, Felipe, give the pole to Felipe because you're next in line.

609
00:43:31,977 --> 00:43:35,177
You go to the back of the line private ball and that's where you stay until graduation.

610
00:43:36,845 --> 00:43:41,985
Now, just I'm going to let you unpack it in a second. When you're the platoon leader, dress blues.

611
00:43:42,785 --> 00:43:48,785
I mean, you get the whole outfit, the recognition in front of like thousands of people.

612
00:43:49,265 --> 00:43:51,605
I was in the back of the line for graduation.

613
00:43:52,145 --> 00:43:57,145
The next guy for the last month or so, three weeks or so, got that job.

614
00:43:57,745 --> 00:44:01,465
Now, based on everything we've been talking about, Felipe, up to this point,

615
00:44:01,545 --> 00:44:05,545
connect that story to this leadership stuff we're talking about.

616
00:44:05,545 --> 00:44:12,445
Yeah, I think that, you know, right out the gate, what happened is you had massive

617
00:44:12,445 --> 00:44:13,825
amount of space made for you.

618
00:44:14,145 --> 00:44:19,525
When you go from first to last, now you have to live inside yourself with what

619
00:44:19,525 --> 00:44:21,505
you did, that split-second decision.

620
00:44:22,265 --> 00:44:25,945
So you're going to run the whole gambit of probably like grief.

621
00:44:26,085 --> 00:44:29,025
You're probably grieving the loss of the status you had.

622
00:44:29,525 --> 00:44:35,425
You had the taste of that sweet power, and it was taken away from you in seconds. Yes.

623
00:44:35,865 --> 00:44:40,105
Park on sweet power for a second. Unpack that a little bit more so we can understand

624
00:44:40,105 --> 00:44:43,145
as leaders, when we have that sweet power, we have to be careful.

625
00:44:43,145 --> 00:44:46,585
Yeah it's very like i've

626
00:44:46,585 --> 00:44:49,825
read quite a few books on power and there is

627
00:44:49,825 --> 00:44:53,445
definitely an allure to power with people we're

628
00:44:53,445 --> 00:44:58,285
drawn to it as i mean it's fractal it happens in the family unit with friends

629
00:44:58,285 --> 00:45:01,885
you can always see like people positioning for the alpha there's alphas betas

630
00:45:01,885 --> 00:45:07,065
and people just naturally credo chart themselves you know to others and compare

631
00:45:07,065 --> 00:45:10,845
i think it's part of the sensing to some degree.

632
00:45:11,145 --> 00:45:17,185
It could be like raw strength or quickness of thought, ability to speak quick

633
00:45:17,185 --> 00:45:21,345
on your feet, all kinds of different ways to have power and exercise power and influence.

634
00:45:22,265 --> 00:45:26,085
But I think, you know, in this story that you're telling what I'm,

635
00:45:26,085 --> 00:45:31,265
what I'm thinking about is to me, the most interesting thing is you graduated.

636
00:45:31,925 --> 00:45:36,205
So you, you shifted and it's, you could have just walked off,

637
00:45:36,245 --> 00:45:39,585
right? Cause you're still in, You're in training. This is training.

638
00:45:40,225 --> 00:45:45,765
So, I mean, you can get out, walk away, or get punished, right?

639
00:45:45,845 --> 00:45:48,885
Because you could have been insubordinate, and you could have been punished.

640
00:45:49,645 --> 00:45:52,965
What would have happened if you would have actually confronted the other person

641
00:45:52,965 --> 00:45:55,165
and gotten into physical altercation?

642
00:45:55,725 --> 00:45:59,285
You're not guaranteed to win. No. Right? You could have got injured,

643
00:45:59,425 --> 00:46:02,705
and you're only 18, and this is like your career.

644
00:46:03,165 --> 00:46:06,845
Now you've got this fight and this mark, and it goes in your record.

645
00:46:07,525 --> 00:46:10,945
And the military is really good about keeping good detailed records oh

646
00:46:10,945 --> 00:46:16,645
yes right so this now you have this reputation being like fire starters so you

647
00:46:16,645 --> 00:46:20,325
and your drill sergeant did you before i even unpack i'm just curious did you

648
00:46:20,325 --> 00:46:24,525
have any separate conversations about this after that day when it first happened

649
00:46:24,525 --> 00:46:29,205
no no talking it was done and over with but there's another lesson in here.

650
00:46:30,255 --> 00:46:35,395
It's another lesson about the overall Marine Corps, the way in which they approach leadership.

651
00:46:35,995 --> 00:46:39,555
They didn't say, oh, Kevin, it's okay. Just don't do that next time.

652
00:46:39,815 --> 00:46:42,415
They didn't say that. Why do you think they didn't say that?

653
00:46:42,955 --> 00:46:46,375
Because you had a number two ready to take your spot. And what happened?

654
00:46:46,395 --> 00:46:50,295
There's 50 people ready to take your spot so that as things change and adapt,

655
00:46:50,635 --> 00:46:55,335
any one of those 49 next people can just move and take it.

656
00:46:55,655 --> 00:46:58,395
Because the mission is more important than the individual.

657
00:46:59,075 --> 00:47:02,255
That, this is what I want people to hone in on. The mission,

658
00:47:02,455 --> 00:47:07,495
the overall goal of the organization is more important than our individual.

659
00:47:08,175 --> 00:47:11,915
I say that a lot. I say, what does the organization need?

660
00:47:12,415 --> 00:47:19,095
What does the mission need? Not what you need, Felipe. Not what Johnny wants. Not what Sally wants.

661
00:47:19,515 --> 00:47:24,355
What does the organization need? The other thing, the other lesson in this was

662
00:47:24,355 --> 00:47:30,975
the organization of the Marine Corps gave me a really good life lesson.

663
00:47:31,315 --> 00:47:34,895
And here's an extreme, right? I can relate it to business. If I make a mistake

664
00:47:34,895 --> 00:47:37,235
in the field, that's a life.

665
00:47:38,135 --> 00:47:42,255
We make a mistake in business unless you're working in healthcare in the operating

666
00:47:42,255 --> 00:47:43,775
room, something really extreme.

667
00:47:44,055 --> 00:47:49,335
It's still costly, right? There's still a cost to it.

668
00:47:50,435 --> 00:47:56,675
So that lesson is there's no mulligans. There's no gimme's, right?

669
00:47:56,675 --> 00:47:58,015
You have to be a strong leader.

670
00:47:58,475 --> 00:48:01,935
And that sweet leadership thing that you were talking about,

671
00:48:01,995 --> 00:48:09,175
how that power is, we can't be so consumed with it that we don't see the trees for the forest.

672
00:48:09,455 --> 00:48:15,455
And I think, you know what else that tells me, that's got to flavor your level

673
00:48:15,455 --> 00:48:16,775
of preparation for things.

674
00:48:17,295 --> 00:48:20,815
I think that's why you go so deep into emotional intelligence,

675
00:48:20,875 --> 00:48:22,415
being holistically there.

676
00:48:22,955 --> 00:48:27,115
Because you could be getting good results with the lower EQ.

677
00:48:27,835 --> 00:48:31,435
You could get decent results. Now, you're not going to get extraordinary results, right?

678
00:48:33,181 --> 00:48:35,981
But you're Kevin. You're going to prepare. You're going to be ready.

679
00:48:36,321 --> 00:48:40,121
I have to prepare. And I think that's a, Kevin, you know, it's a good contrast.

680
00:48:40,561 --> 00:48:45,461
Right. You described in the Marine Corps, does not exist in business.

681
00:48:45,721 --> 00:48:50,641
And I know this, I'm reading a book right now called The Triumph of Classical Management Over Lean.

682
00:48:51,121 --> 00:48:56,301
And in this book by Bob Emiliani, Bob statistically shows through his research

683
00:48:56,301 --> 00:49:00,301
that leadership, and this was first postulated by Taiichi Ono,

684
00:49:00,401 --> 00:49:03,741
that influenced lean as we know it today, which influenced scrums.

685
00:49:03,761 --> 00:49:04,721
We know it today in agile.

686
00:49:05,361 --> 00:49:11,141
And Taichi said at the time that half of what a manager does or a leader does is wrong every day.

687
00:49:11,221 --> 00:49:13,561
Half of what they do is wrong and the other half is right.

688
00:49:13,981 --> 00:49:18,581
He said the good managers learn where the wrong stuff is and they change it

689
00:49:18,581 --> 00:49:22,161
so the next day they don't make the same wrong things and they get better.

690
00:49:22,321 --> 00:49:27,341
But what Bob is putting in this book in business, the predominant ethos of business

691
00:49:27,341 --> 00:49:29,501
today, when leaders make mistakes.

692
00:49:29,681 --> 00:49:32,701
And I'm going to just pick on AI because it's such a hot topic.

693
00:49:32,861 --> 00:49:41,861
Last year, 2023, we had almost 850, call it 900,000 jobs vanished because of AI.

694
00:49:42,421 --> 00:49:46,541
And people said it was because enhanced productivity. But in reality,

695
00:49:46,861 --> 00:49:49,801
it's the leaders that set groups of

696
00:49:49,801 --> 00:49:53,001
a certain size with certain number of employees, and they made a mistake.

697
00:49:53,761 --> 00:50:00,821
AI didn't come out in 2023. It's been around for over a decade and longer, even longer, right?

698
00:50:00,861 --> 00:50:05,341
So you had all of these big companies, household names that made a mistake.

699
00:50:05,461 --> 00:50:08,301
They made a gamble. They made a forecast. They forecasted wrong.

700
00:50:08,521 --> 00:50:11,681
They made a mistake and they cut staff to correct their mistake.

701
00:50:12,241 --> 00:50:16,741
So they eliminated people's jobs, but the market reacts to those leaders is

702
00:50:16,741 --> 00:50:20,181
like, look at those smart leaders, like making the right call,

703
00:50:20,241 --> 00:50:23,341
but that destroyed, you know, 950,000 families.

704
00:50:23,821 --> 00:50:27,621
That's people, right? And that's just across four companies.

705
00:50:28,735 --> 00:50:33,175
That's not even like the rest of the planet. That's just categorizing the top four.

706
00:50:33,575 --> 00:50:38,535
But if this was like, if the mission of those businesses was better known and

707
00:50:38,535 --> 00:50:41,895
the people were aligned, they would have adapted and kept their job.

708
00:50:41,955 --> 00:50:43,155
People could have kept their jobs.

709
00:50:43,295 --> 00:50:46,315
Leadership could have done something different, could have adapted.

710
00:50:46,555 --> 00:50:50,775
We have businesses all the time where companies can adapt and change.

711
00:50:51,235 --> 00:50:54,535
But we get into these situations where we have too much regulation or too much

712
00:50:54,535 --> 00:50:58,815
sticking to bad things and no adjusting. I'm just going to say, forget regulation.

713
00:50:59,315 --> 00:51:04,615
Anytime you just don't adjust. Anytime you can't adjust, you stop at adaptation.

714
00:51:05,135 --> 00:51:08,955
This is where you get these catastrophic errors. That's one of the things I

715
00:51:08,955 --> 00:51:14,095
really like about the military and the people can learn like the mission right

716
00:51:14,095 --> 00:51:17,195
or wrong with, you know, what you're thinking about the military,

717
00:51:17,355 --> 00:51:20,675
that process, that system of mission first,

718
00:51:20,835 --> 00:51:22,935
then the people, right?

719
00:51:22,995 --> 00:51:25,475
The people carry out the mission. The people make the mission happen.

720
00:51:25,715 --> 00:51:30,235
That's right. That's powerful. That type of alignment, I think,

721
00:51:30,235 --> 00:51:32,635
is one of the first things we see in Scrum when we implement it.

722
00:51:32,715 --> 00:51:34,035
I mean, we started right here at the beginning.

723
00:51:34,155 --> 00:51:37,755
We said, like, what are we going to do so the two of us are aligned on what's

724
00:51:37,755 --> 00:51:39,855
in and what's out for our sprint?

725
00:51:40,395 --> 00:51:44,475
Right. And it's all about our mission and our goal for this conversation that

726
00:51:44,475 --> 00:51:46,135
we are, you know, 48 minutes into.

727
00:51:46,235 --> 00:51:49,495
And I can't believe that 48 minutes has gone by that fast.

728
00:51:49,715 --> 00:51:53,475
I should have warned you, Kevin, that a conversation with me to unpack these

729
00:51:53,475 --> 00:51:55,575
things is never going to be fast.

730
00:51:56,255 --> 00:51:59,195
And the sprint like all the people listening is kevin's like mentioning this

731
00:51:59,195 --> 00:52:02,515
time mark right that's the unedited 48 minutes so who knows what that's going

732
00:52:02,515 --> 00:52:04,115
to be when you get to this part of the show.

733
00:52:04,995 --> 00:52:07,815
Because you know sometimes i gotta i gotta cut out

734
00:52:07,815 --> 00:52:10,655
of course i don't know what i would cut out like now

735
00:52:10,655 --> 00:52:13,555
just leave this one unedited this could be wrong you maybe just

736
00:52:13,555 --> 00:52:16,435
want to do a three-part series with kevin ball exactly we could

737
00:52:16,435 --> 00:52:19,295
do a three-part series that unpack is um so

738
00:52:19,295 --> 00:52:21,955
for those paying attention to the the scrum board that we set up at

739
00:52:21,955 --> 00:52:25,795
the beginning i'm only at item two i just

740
00:52:25,795 --> 00:52:28,515
not got to item two that's why we call it a

741
00:52:28,515 --> 00:52:31,695
wish list that's exactly this backlog

742
00:52:31,695 --> 00:52:37,435
we didn't we didn't actually put it in kevin and i did not have data to tell

743
00:52:37,435 --> 00:52:41,015
us like how fast do we go through these topics ahead of time so we don't know

744
00:52:41,015 --> 00:52:45,395
so we're just trying we're just trying now we know kevin you and i we get about

745
00:52:45,395 --> 00:52:49,835
one topic every 20 minutes yeah yeah about one every 20 minutes or so.

746
00:52:50,215 --> 00:52:54,395
This is how like you're, if you are hanging out with me outside,

747
00:52:54,935 --> 00:52:56,215
this is my life. Everyone.

748
00:52:56,275 --> 00:52:59,175
This is like when I meet and hang with people like Kevin, this is what we do.

749
00:52:59,235 --> 00:53:02,515
We could just talk all day and night. Absolutely.

750
00:53:03,916 --> 00:53:08,536
But I want to pivot now, Kevin, because I know we're going to bring it home

751
00:53:08,536 --> 00:53:12,316
to the mission of our show here for today's episode.

752
00:53:12,916 --> 00:53:17,036
What are some of the common challenges? You've been in so many different industries

753
00:53:17,036 --> 00:53:20,076
and everyone thinks that my industry is the unique snowflake.

754
00:53:20,156 --> 00:53:24,756
They all think that, right? They all think that construction is no different. Design is no different.

755
00:53:25,076 --> 00:53:30,436
I've heard architects make the same observations that general contractors make,

756
00:53:30,616 --> 00:53:35,416
that trade contractors make, that owners make. I've heard all of them say the same exact things.

757
00:53:35,616 --> 00:53:40,516
So I want to hear from your perspective, what are common things that people

758
00:53:40,516 --> 00:53:43,456
are like, no, this is a challenge that we're having trouble with?

759
00:53:43,556 --> 00:53:44,456
What are the common troubles?

760
00:53:45,076 --> 00:53:48,996
The common troubles that I hear across different industries? Yeah.

761
00:53:49,636 --> 00:53:52,656
Okay. Or you just pick the industry and I'll just tell you, Kevin,

762
00:53:52,696 --> 00:53:55,576
that's just like X or that's just like Y. Yeah. Okay, great.

763
00:53:55,776 --> 00:53:59,116
I can't say X because we're not giving any money. Twitter is not sponsoring

764
00:53:59,116 --> 00:54:00,376
this show. Right, right.

765
00:54:01,976 --> 00:54:09,136
Exactly. But here's one. Okay, let me pick an industry. I'm going to pick aerospace.

766
00:54:11,296 --> 00:54:15,356
All right. Take me out of the sky. Sky's the limit, Kevin. Where are you going

767
00:54:15,356 --> 00:54:18,776
to go with these troubles? That's right. The sky is the limit, right?

768
00:54:19,696 --> 00:54:25,056
So the common thing I've heard in this particular industry is, oh, we're very complex.

769
00:54:25,316 --> 00:54:27,876
People don't understand what we do. Yeah.

770
00:54:30,544 --> 00:54:34,124
Your turn. Yeah. So, I mean, I heard that.

771
00:54:34,184 --> 00:54:39,244
So in design, like healthcare design, I go to this conference every year and

772
00:54:39,244 --> 00:54:43,144
every year people that go, it's a mix of different sectors of construction.

773
00:54:43,384 --> 00:54:46,744
People are like, why is it always like these healthcare people complaining about

774
00:54:46,744 --> 00:54:49,384
how hard it is? Like I'm in industrial construction.

775
00:54:49,584 --> 00:54:51,924
It's just as hard for me. I'm in solar construction.

776
00:54:52,224 --> 00:54:55,704
It's just as hard for me. And in solar, it's like a 10 step process,

777
00:54:55,964 --> 00:54:58,244
depending on what type of field, You know, there's different,

778
00:54:58,324 --> 00:55:02,804
and even with just 10 step process, because you have people changing environment

779
00:55:02,804 --> 00:55:05,064
and you have different jurisdictions,

780
00:55:05,504 --> 00:55:08,944
you have so much complexity, like it, it matters.

781
00:55:09,064 --> 00:55:12,604
I think it is also the people's experiences, you know, like,

782
00:55:12,604 --> 00:55:16,404
you know, we're, we're living at a time right now where you've got five generations

783
00:55:16,404 --> 00:55:18,544
working at the same time.

784
00:55:18,984 --> 00:55:23,664
And there's a lot of differences in how each generation communicates with each

785
00:55:23,664 --> 00:55:27,704
other. And so aerospace, especially, aerospace is kind of a younger,

786
00:55:27,904 --> 00:55:30,724
relatively speaking, it's a younger industry.

787
00:55:30,804 --> 00:55:36,904
It's not as mature as agriculture, as an example. Right, or manufacturing.

788
00:55:37,824 --> 00:55:41,444
Right. Or from the general sense of manufacturing during the Industrial Revolution

789
00:55:41,444 --> 00:55:43,384
in the late 19th century.

790
00:55:43,924 --> 00:55:47,064
That's right. So you've got, yeah, you've got like, I mean, the first thing

791
00:55:47,064 --> 00:55:50,984
for aerospace was probably the rocket, right?

792
00:55:51,004 --> 00:55:53,884
Which was made by a tinkerer. a tinker or develop

793
00:55:53,884 --> 00:55:57,904
a rocket it wasn't like born out of a mathematical equations

794
00:55:57,904 --> 00:56:01,244
it was people just kind of messing around and getting some thrust

795
00:56:01,244 --> 00:56:07,964
and magic happened absolutely so i think that complexity is that's super common

796
00:56:07,964 --> 00:56:13,924
everyone's like you just don't know okay super common that's a good one what's

797
00:56:13,924 --> 00:56:18,244
another one people what did you hear in fintech i'm kind of curious to see what What the banking,

798
00:56:18,444 --> 00:56:22,064
the banking doors are closed and we can't see what they're saying.

799
00:56:22,144 --> 00:56:24,144
What do they say about closed doors at the banks?

800
00:56:24,924 --> 00:56:29,024
Let me think of a good one from the fintech finance industry.

801
00:56:29,704 --> 00:56:32,944
What did I hear that might be common that you could, you could pick up on?

802
00:56:34,056 --> 00:56:37,676
Let me switch that up. Our customers don't really understand who we are.

803
00:56:37,916 --> 00:56:42,456
Our customers don't understand who we are. Our customers don't understand who we are.

804
00:56:42,736 --> 00:56:48,156
That is like, so I remember being a new student to Agile, and Jeff Sutherland

805
00:56:48,156 --> 00:56:53,956
was talking about the yellow book that Mike Beadle had when they were signing the Agile manifesto.

806
00:56:54,216 --> 00:56:59,716
And the whole point of that book was bringing the customer into the conversation for what you deliver.

807
00:56:59,996 --> 00:57:03,376
And I thought, how was that revolutionary in 2001?

808
00:57:04,196 --> 00:57:08,176
And then I remembered my parents had worked in the automobile industry and cars,

809
00:57:08,276 --> 00:57:11,656
the car industry famously told people we're tastemakers.

810
00:57:11,936 --> 00:57:15,916
We make the taste. We tell you what kind of car you want to drive.

811
00:57:16,016 --> 00:57:21,436
You don't, we don't have to do feedback. I mean, people listening to the show, think about the 1970s.

812
00:57:21,596 --> 00:57:25,096
Did anyone ever ask you a survey? Like, did you get surveys?

813
00:57:25,716 --> 00:57:29,516
No. You got what you got. You got what you got. They told you.

814
00:57:29,936 --> 00:57:34,336
You got what you got. Exactly. And now we get surveys. I had my internet went

815
00:57:34,336 --> 00:57:38,956
down yesterday and Xfinity Comcast sent me three survey attempts,

816
00:57:39,316 --> 00:57:44,656
two text messages, and one email asking me how was my service during the outage.

817
00:57:44,876 --> 00:57:51,216
I was like, it's an easy question. Like, I don't know, because you weren't giving

818
00:57:51,216 --> 00:57:52,556
me what I needed. So there was nothing.

819
00:57:53,036 --> 00:57:57,596
It's not, that's not even a good question, but they want feedback so much because

820
00:57:57,596 --> 00:58:01,616
there's an in the ethos since 2001. and one, as agile started to grow,

821
00:58:01,756 --> 00:58:05,856
people are thinking, oh, maybe asking the customers like what they like about

822
00:58:05,856 --> 00:58:07,876
what we deliver is valuable.

823
00:58:08,236 --> 00:58:12,516
And I've had a lot of companies contact me on social media, Kevin, asking me for advice.

824
00:58:13,096 --> 00:58:16,256
Like I've got product, this product or this service. And I was,

825
00:58:16,276 --> 00:58:19,836
my first question was always like, how do your customers actually use your product?

826
00:58:19,936 --> 00:58:22,576
Especially software companies, because they have so much data.

827
00:58:22,656 --> 00:58:25,476
They don't even look at, I was like, you got all these features.

828
00:58:25,836 --> 00:58:27,176
What do people actually use?

829
00:58:28,056 --> 00:58:31,536
And don't listen to what they say. Look at the data and see where they're actually

830
00:58:31,536 --> 00:58:33,196
spending their time. It's empiricism.

831
00:58:33,956 --> 00:58:36,496
I tell this story all the time. When you take your car to the mechanic,

832
00:58:36,696 --> 00:58:39,176
what does he say? Open the hood up and start your car.

833
00:58:39,756 --> 00:58:42,436
I want to see the moving parts. I want to see how you interact with it.

834
00:58:42,896 --> 00:58:46,896
That's what I tell organizations when I work with them. Open up your business hood.

835
00:58:47,536 --> 00:58:50,976
Let me watch you work and listen to you move and watch you move.

836
00:58:51,516 --> 00:58:55,756
Then we're able to dissect maybe what the problem could be and start to solve

837
00:58:55,756 --> 00:58:56,876
it from a holistic approach.

838
00:58:57,536 --> 00:59:01,516
Perspective i guess that's such a good one we're like you know now in this age

839
00:59:01,516 --> 00:59:04,876
of zoom i'm like share your screen let me see what you're clicking on,

840
00:59:06,256 --> 00:59:10,796
they're like oh no the menu is on the left side left side people are like what

841
00:59:10,796 --> 00:59:15,136
do you mean like how do i share it's the big giant green arrow in the middle

842
00:59:15,136 --> 00:59:17,016
the only thing green in the middle.

843
00:59:18,644 --> 00:59:22,524
Right. So, so true. Those are, those are two big ones, but Kevin,

844
00:59:22,604 --> 00:59:25,224
I want to thank you for coming on to the show.

845
00:59:25,324 --> 00:59:31,144
I love, I love it. We scrub, we scrub the show and in, in the scrubbing of the

846
00:59:31,144 --> 00:59:34,424
show, our, I would say our velocity was three.

847
00:59:34,924 --> 00:59:39,324
We had three topics in an hour, three topics in an hour. It was good.

848
00:59:39,564 --> 00:59:43,164
I want to give you the last word, Kevin, because I think that you've got so

849
00:59:43,164 --> 00:59:45,864
much to share and I see you overflowing.

850
00:59:46,004 --> 00:59:49,624
I want to give you a chance to overflow. close. I've got my cup here.

851
00:59:49,804 --> 00:59:52,564
I'm going to let you fill my cup a little bit.

852
00:59:52,804 --> 00:59:56,584
So, Kevin, when you're thinking about the people listening to all the things

853
00:59:56,584 --> 01:00:01,364
we talk about, what's one piece of advice that you touched on that you want

854
01:00:01,364 --> 01:00:03,844
to go deeper on so they can make their work easier today?

855
01:00:04,704 --> 01:00:10,344
Well, I'm going to add to your question a little bit. I'm going to embellish

856
01:00:10,344 --> 01:00:11,764
that question. Make my question better.

857
01:00:12,244 --> 01:00:17,624
Yeah, because we're going to make it not really better, but let's expand it a little bit.

858
01:00:17,864 --> 01:00:21,904
I want to take the word work and just obliterate work.

859
01:00:22,624 --> 01:00:28,244
And I'm going to tell you a story about what I did that I can pull back into the word work.

860
01:00:28,884 --> 01:00:34,404
I resigned from my corporate job in December without having another job lined up.

861
01:00:35,104 --> 01:00:37,644
So let that sink in for a second, Philippe and audience.

862
01:00:38,504 --> 01:00:43,524
So I took the leap. Let's use the leap Take the leap as a metaphor for what

863
01:00:43,524 --> 01:00:45,664
we're doing in our lives, homework, whatever.

864
01:00:46,244 --> 01:00:51,564
Take the leap to improve. Take the leap to be curious.

865
01:00:51,884 --> 01:00:54,984
Take the leap to observe, orient, decide, and act.

866
01:00:55,244 --> 01:01:01,244
Take the leap to really be a leader. Take the leap to be curious. Take the leap to ask why.

867
01:01:01,524 --> 01:01:06,404
Take the leap as a leader to really pull in the experts and people around you

868
01:01:06,404 --> 01:01:11,044
and bring people to the table. I will say in my last role, a really senior leader

869
01:01:11,044 --> 01:01:13,924
pulled me in and put me at the seat at the table.

870
01:01:14,904 --> 01:01:19,384
That's what I want to leave everybody with. Take that leap and pull it in.

871
01:01:19,804 --> 01:01:22,824
Thank you so much, Kevin. Thank you, Felipe. I appreciate it.

872
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:30,480
Music.

873
01:01:25,044 --> 01:01:30,004
Very special thanks to my guest. I'm Felipe Engineer Manriquez.

874
01:01:33,744 --> 01:01:40,024
The EBFC Show is created by Felipe and produced by a passion to build easier and better.

875
01:01:40,784 --> 01:01:45,864
Thanks for listening. Stay safe, everybody. Let's go build.