Applied Lean Construction and Lean Thinking with Melanie Gilbertson

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:21:07
---
Am I, like, allowed to, you know, continue eating breakfast or are there any rules I should be aware of? All you have to think about is this. The podcast is audio and video. So, any food that falls out of your mouth... How's my hair? ...could be clipped and made into like... That could be my LinkedIn famous thing. Yeah.

00:00:21:10 - 00:00:52:11
---
So this is where I'm hanging out if it gets really loud and I don't think it will. If it does, it's just because it's ambiance. Yeah. It's my natural habitat for 40 hours a week. So it's so generous with the, the under-reporting of your time there. You like how I like said this is a conservative estimate. It's ok. I think I knew what I was signing up for when I was like, of course Felipe like just chat about whatever for an hour.

00:00:52:11 - 00:01:19:10
---
Why wouldn't I want you going to be so much fun? Yeah. Any challenging things that you've recently gone from? Like, a cool little story you want to share? I think I think something that was really cool for me personally and Flintco as a company. You know, we've we've been training internal subject matter experts for about five years now, almost six years like it's been this community.

00:01:19:11 - 00:01:37:03
---
You know, I think it's intended, you know, to be this 12 month like you're going to be a Lean coach for 12 months and then rotate off and pass them on. And they're like, that is not the way the program has shaped up at all. But what's cool about last week is we did our first continuing education event.

00:01:37:03 - 00:02:02:01
---
So the coaches that have have been part of the program, I continue to stay engaged with the program and mentor other teams. Like they all got to come back and, you know, back into the classroom. And, you know, we spent two days together plus a team building event and just hearing a conversation, you know, from from where we started with first training, which was like, here's what Lean is.

00:02:02:09 - 00:02:24:15
---
Here's what a weekly work plan is here, that individual elements to all the things that we're talking about today, you know, we're just more focused on here's how you can coach a team that's dealing with this or here's how, you know, trade partners, we deal with it like just the advancement of that conversation and and seeing what we're talking about, you know, as representative of the company.

00:02:24:15 - 00:02:57:12
---
Like it was personally so rewarding that that happened for the job that it all like just came to fruition after after five years of hard work. So it makes me really excited for the next five years and so on and so forth. It's amazing. Yeah, anything. It's proud of you. That's such a great accomplishment too. It was it was really it's like, you know, that little seed of like, ok we can we can totally, you know, the folks in operations at the end of the day, like they're the ones that should be experts in putting Lean into place on a job.

00:02:57:12 - 00:03:26:05
---
And like we've achieved that. So it's, it's really cool. Really cool. Yeah. We had assistant superintendents who have now been promoted to superintendents you know, we're in some cases there's, you know, been office engineers who have gotten promoted up and, you know, are on the path of promotion again. Part of the group, you know, was a superintendent has moved to senior superintendent and we have and most of this group was actually superintendents.

00:03:26:05 - 00:03:44:18
---
We did, you know, show hands that I think about 70% of them were you know more field side. But then there's also been project management side where either, you know, they've started out as a an OE or PE and they've gotten promoted. So not everybody had been promoted in the group, but a lot of them had over the past five years.

00:03:44:18 - 00:04:15:24
---
So that's, you know, that's cool as well. That's super rewarding. Yeah. Just people like warning working with this group might result in your promotion for one week as well. It would be a good, good sales pitch. But it's, it's also really cool to see like the company recognize that effort as well, not just, you know, oh, they're part of the Lean click. Like no, it's the company's initiative and reporting your initiative.

00:04:16:02 - 00:04:39:04
---
Yeah. Those individuals are they can contribute at a higher level with the tools that they have. Mm hmm. Thinking of the mindset that they have. And it's it's like you said, they went from just surface level awareness to now they're coaching other people. Yeah. Like it's sustained. Yeah. Hit the cycle, like you've closed the feedback loop and they're continuing to reap the benefits of the time.

00:04:39:04 - 00:05:03:06
---
Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Right, right, right here. Oh, yeah. Like, it's super cool. So if I had the ability to play sound effects, you know, hypothetically, I might hypothetically play something like like this for you. Me, will play, will play, see what I did there.

00:05:06:13 - 00:05:31:14
---
OK, I need to get that Sound Effect app, how I like it. I guess it feels like a well-chosen sound effect. You know, I could always liven up the conversation. So I learned a new term this morning. Goblin mode, as in Elon Musk posted an uncredited meme. You know that whenever I guess he was saying whenever he bought all this, you know, shares and Twitter and whatnot he was in.

00:05:31:23 - 00:05:54:24
---
It was a like a Breaking Bad meme and said, you know, or my client was in goblin mode and I was like, I have learned a new term. So are you familiar with the term goblin mode? Oh, I am not so I guess what it means is when you're in goblin mode, you, you know, maybe hygiene and normal social interaction isn't is it quite the thing?

00:05:54:24 - 00:06:21:20
---
I'll I'll attributed this article to the website futurism, by the way, which is a very interesting website. And so, yeah. So, you know, apparently you might buy the same outfit multiple days in a row or, you know, maybe all those other societal niceties. I was like, OK, I I feel like maybe I could get behind this term not, you know, in a professional environment, but like goblin mode, like that's it's so descriptive.

00:06:21:20 - 00:06:45:15
---
So it's like when we're in college and we're studying for finals, we go into goblin mode. Like you open up your dorm room, you're like, whoa, like a puff you know, floats out into the hallway. Yes. For writing papers and and like, no, no, you should just shut that door. Oh, it's just conversations already meandering perfectly. Wonderful. I'm going to kick it off now.

00:06:46:13 - 00:06:59:14
---
Let's just to get you ready hey, make sure other people know about Goblin, though. I just. I feel a lot. Do you futurism. This is going to be a mainstream term. So, you know, from the promise that will be kept in.

00:07:02:07 - 00:07:12:20
---
Welcome to The EBFC Show, The Easier, Better for Construction podcast. I'm your host, Felipe Engineer-Manriquez. This show is all about the business of construction.

00:07:12:20 - 00:07:48:22
---
Today's episode is sponsored by Bosch RefineMySite is a cloud based construction collaboration platform that applies Lean principles to enable your entire team to plan, communicate and execute in real time. It's the digital tool that works in tandem with your Last Planner System process and puts it all together in one simple collaborative ecosystem. This easy to use platform is available in English, German, Spanish, Portuguese and French, and can be used on desktops, tablet and mobile devices.

00:07:48:22 - 00:08:00:24
---
According to Spencer Easton, scheduling manager at Oakland Construction, refined my site, in my opinion, is the best, cLeanest tool on the market for the Last Planner System.

00:08:00:24 - 00:08:24:12
---
Here's what our users have to say. We've looked at three other digital scheduling platforms and none compare to the straightforward approach RefineMySite takes. From milestone planning all the way down to daily tasks this program gives every general contractor and their trade partners meaningful collaboration, accountability and KPIs.

00:08:24:12 - 00:08:28:17
---
Register today to try RefineMySite for free for 60 days.

00:08:28:17 - 00:08:49:02
---
Today's show is also sponsored by the Lean Construction Institute. LCI is working to lead the building industry and transforming its practices and culture. Its vision is to create a healthy and thriving industry that delivers outstanding project outcomes every time for everyone. Check the show notes for more information. Now to the show.

00:08:49:02 - 00:09:13:24
---
Welcome to the show, Melanie Gilbertson. Melanie, I've been a fan of yours longer than I think you've even recognized me as a human being. Surprise! Ha ha ha. What a compliment. I don't know, like, in in real years, it'll probably be, like, a decade ago, but who knows? Who knows? You know, considering 20 to 21 was like ten years in and of itself.

00:09:13:24 - 00:09:36:15
---
It feels like so absolute, it seems right. And when we met, I, I was giving some kind of talk on probably something weird related and, you know, you were in the audience, but I met you through helping to organize the event. Mm hmm. And you asked a question just at the end on some random thing. I think we might have been fighting with the superintendent about issue tracking logs.

00:09:37:01 - 00:09:37:07
---
OK.

00:09:39:18 - 00:09:45:22
---
And I don't remember what your answer was, but I was just like, you need to stay after class, miss, because we have more to talk about.

00:09:48:09 - 00:10:13:07
---
Well, I was hoping you could give me, like, the script of that, because I also I'm like, I mean, I remember, you know, meeting in the class and talking about constraint logs the pros of the log versus incorporating it within. Now, it's just part of your schedule, which to this day, like I see your point, like I know most of the log is easy, but if you just get it in the schedule, like, then there's no log.

00:10:13:13 - 00:10:50:06
---
Yeah, that's where it belongs because it's just something to do. You saw Heather knock my glasses off with an ELMO. I did, yeah. In a parking lot after we almost got hit by a car. Ya know and I recall, so that was that was early days of maybe not too early, but the LCI Oklahoma chapter. And I was I think I just gotten the title of Lean Manager or maybe I was still quality assurance manager, but like working on leads or showing up driving from Tulsa it was like a hundred mile journey, you know, to be there at 7:00 in the morning.

00:10:50:19 - 00:11:10:11
---
Those were good times. So worth it. Yeah, it was worth it like seven that was that was some good agility that day because as I recall correctly, we couldn't quite get in the door or whatever the right person to unlock it wasn't there. So we're meeting outside, we're locked out. We still started it. Yeah, we still started anyway.

00:11:10:11 - 00:11:30:05
---
And Elmo went flying in the first 5 minutes, but I don't want to since moved on from those that pair of glasses that got scratched on the asphalt or the girl. But how long did you keep them? I kept them for a while. Oh, why wouldn't you? They weren't sure they were. They're anti scratch. Well, that's good. I prepared, I.

00:11:30:12 - 00:11:52:22
---
I live a rough life. Elmo. Elmo made an impression that day. This can be dangerous if you buy. If used by Heather, I mean. Yes, think learned. Yes. You know, she's got she's got roller derby in her background. I'm just saying that she body checked me one day. We were in Phenix. Like, let me show you what it's like in roller derby.

00:11:53:03 - 00:12:17:22
---
And I got body checked into a building by somebody, like, half your size, no less. Yeah, literally half my size. I think I flew, like, I think I moved six or eight feet into into a like a marble wall of a hotel. Just we were walking by foot. Feels like a near miss almost with my hands out. So my glasses didn't get crushed against the wall structure.

00:12:18:08 - 00:12:39:21
---
Is that I had learned from the last. Yes. Yeah. This is PDCA in action right here. Well played. People, this is us talking about closing that feedback, right? Talking about it's just like learn and improve, like go on down the road. So circling back to to that LCI event meeting in Oklahoma City, that's also how Heather and I met.

00:12:40:13 - 00:13:04:02
---
Oh, wow. Cause, yeah, yeah, it worked out really. Well for for me and Flintco because obviously, if we hadn't met, she wouldn't be working here today. That's. Well, she probably would, but yeah, makes it a lot easier when you know somebody for two years before you like, so I think you'd be a great fit. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's, it's been, it's been good times.

00:13:04:02 - 00:13:25:18
---
That's been cool that we're not even going to say her last name. So the people, just some random Heather we were talking about. Yeah. Anyway, Melody, please tell the good people of The EBFC Show a little bit about yourself. Ok. And people listening give us some comments and feedback and likes that all the places this video propagates because we like to react and respond to your feedback.

00:13:25:18 - 00:13:49:20
---
Your feedback is key for people like us. Thank you. Thank you for... True statement. Felipe. I love your radio voice by the way. It's solid. I've got I'm going to try. I'm here to to soothe and satisfy. Yeah. And that one more listen to radio Felipe FM. So I'll start with instead of telling you about work side, we'll start with personal side.

00:13:51:19 - 00:14:15:12
---
So Melanie Gilbertson for Melanie Lynn Gilbertson if you want my middle name. So there you go. That's that's all the details you need. Yeah. Explains a lot now. Yeah. Right. So grew up in Dallas moved to Oklahoma to temporarily I thought it was temporarily at the time to go to Oklahoma State University and I've been here ever since. Wow.

00:14:15:14 - 00:14:38:08
---
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I really love Oklahoma. You know, I thought I would go back to Dallas because of like professional opportunities. Obviously, there's a ton of construction companies there, but now ended up end up staying here. My husband and I have lived in Tulsa. I guess we've been together for 17 years, and two of those were in college.

00:14:38:08 - 00:15:07:05
---
So we've been in Tulsa for 15 years. We've been married for 14 years, lived in the same house, which I think is somewhat of a rarity these days. Right? It is rare, yeah. In in that interim white love spending time outside. So have a, have a big garden. We have a small property. It's like two and a half acres but we spend a lot of time doing manual labor on it, lots of sort of work as well.

00:15:08:06 - 00:15:29:02
---
We also recently got into, I feel like I'm talking about mutual hobbies, but really we get along really well. So we have a lot of the same hobbies together. Yeah, that we bought a jeep a few years ago. We've, we've been into hiking for some time and then we bought a jeep so we could like go more places and see more things.

00:15:29:12 - 00:15:53:09
---
And the jeep actually been a whole lot of fun because like we've put a lot of upgrades into it and it's something we've done together. So yeah. Oh, how lifted is it? It's just so it's it's only, it's only got a two and a half inch lift on it but it's got 37 inch tires. Yeah. So you know, I got to, I got to push off to get into it but that's ok.

00:15:54:10 - 00:16:16:11
---
And we actually last year we bought a teardrop trailer as an off road trailer that we now tow behind the jeep so we can go on even more adventures. Oh yeah. So that's, that's been how we spend our free time lately. We need people listening to this. If you're looking to get Melanie a gift, what could you give to somebody that has everything?

00:16:16:20 - 00:16:44:22
---
Get a national park pass. National Park Pass her want and get her a drone so that we could get some drone footage of this teardrop trailer on a on a path like deep in the woods. Yes, somewhere crossing a river or a little gully. I ok, like I am also amateur video editor, but absolutely like GoPro comes out and like, oh, we're gonna film this great thing.

00:16:45:05 - 00:17:04:08
---
I don't think I'm any great editor or anything like that, but I'm entertained via video. So that's really what matters, right? All of that. Yeah. Yeah. So I think video is good, like video editing in particular and understanding how that works. I feel like that's going to be a massive form of communication in the future. Like people should just kind of know how that goes.

00:17:04:08 - 00:17:30:22
---
Exactly right. Like, you just that's how I like if I want to know how to do something I'm going to look it up on YouTube. So it's just it feels like we should be well versed in some. Yeah. Anyway, that's so getting to know me personally, that's there you go. And then professionally, Director of Production Support at FlintCo, this is the third position I've held with Flintco.

00:17:30:23 - 00:17:58:16
---
I started out as a Quality Assurance Manager with a Lean focus, then transitioned to Lean Manager full time and our team grew and the program grew and then just last, I guess this past January. So just a few months ago, um, got the director position and so now production support covers scheduling and Lean with options for, for growth I don't know what those options are like.

00:17:58:16 - 00:18:29:17
---
That's still, you know, it's roaming around up there but it's, it's really cool to have I mean a huge part of our Lean program focuses on Last Planner System and production scheduling and making that effective. So it just felt like a natural fit, you know, to combine Lean and scheduling together with those those efforts. But I haven't always been in that support function before I joined Flintco.

00:18:31:02 - 00:18:55:12
---
Look at me like I'm poor planning my entire career here. I'm going backwards. This was why I spent nine years in operations with another company so, you know, got some really good field experience there. That was for a company here in Tulsa, but worked on a ton of different projects on on all different sizes. And then join that.

00:18:55:14 - 00:19:12:07
---
That was the only company I worked for until Flintco, out of college, graduated from Oklahoma State with a construction management degree but that was not my first major. I actually started out I thought I wanted to be an architect from like the time I was ten. So that was the goal all the way up until about two years.

00:19:12:07 - 00:19:38:11
---
Into school. I was like, So this whole design thing, like, I'm not feeling it. I don't think it feels me either. Like I was getting B's regardless and I total A student. And I was like, What's this B business? And at the same time the guy I was dating not my current husband, his dad had a construction management degree and I didn't even know that was a thing.

00:19:38:22 - 00:20:03:09
---
Like, you know, I thought, Oh yeah, like trades go out and it's all of this, you know, field expertise. Like there's no professional degree in this can find out there is. So yeah. So I made the switch and here we are. Here we are. And at some point during all that time, you found time to study and learn about William Edwards Deming. Which I know. True. We have in common.

00:20:03:12 - 00:20:29:22
---
Where did that happen? Yes, I guess that would happen. That would happen probably when I was in, in operations, my first Lean project was in 2009 and... Same, we have that in common. Yeah, right. Like it doesn't feel like that long ago frankly. Like I know adding up the years it's more than my fingers but like you know didn't feel that long ago.

00:20:31:05 - 00:20:59:10
---
I didn't learn about it then though. Like that was the system that we, we put into place on, on my first Lean project, it was like a conglomerate of all the different Last Planner steps into one. Yeah. So it was, it was interesting. But you know, it was successful enough with that conglomeration that kept, you know, kept doing it like I was interested enough to try and convince other project teams to do it.

00:20:59:21 - 00:21:19:24
---
And somewhere along the way, you know, the company I was working for created a task force about the practices, you know, ok what, what makes sense for this company? You know, what do we learn more about it? I think that's where Deming came into play. And so that idea of like plan do check and adjust it like it's so simple, right?

00:21:20:00 - 00:21:40:04
---
Like so simple, so simple. You can you can tie anything back to it. Like, you know, one of my favorite questions, you guys, I guess the last couple meetings that I have set up, you know, over the last year or so has been like and what's the key for checking and adjusting on what we're doing today? Like chances are it's not a one and done thing.

00:21:40:04 - 00:22:00:21
---
So like how, you know, are we checking in on this six months from now? And, you know, is that the checking to just cycle or where does that come in? So yeah, if you're not doing that, folks, you should be. That's your first nugget right there people actually at the 25th nugget current right we're not given points out but if we were Melanie's already on the leaderboard.

00:22:01:10 - 00:22:21:21
---
Yes watch out. Yeah. Yes moving on up. That's that's all I got to say is it's confirmed yeah I like them just make it so simple and asking that easy question about what is the frequency of the check ins you're closing the loop for a lot of people. Oh yeah we do. And it's not just limited to the construction business.

00:22:21:21 - 00:22:45:03
---
This is true of all businesses. People fail to close that loop and see like are we on the right trajectory where we want it to be? And if we're not, what do you do know what to do if we just look back and see, where did you want to be? Yeah, but you got to have that conversation about where like again, begin with the end in mind, like where is it you want to go to begin with?

00:22:45:18 - 00:23:15:00
---
And if you set some parameters around that, you know what your definition of done like it, it makes it a lot easier. And I am all for making things simpler and easier or easier and better, as some might say. Somebody Oh, that's extra credit getting the show name in! Oh yes. Yeah, yeah. This is looking to be a very sound effects heavy possibly interview.

00:23:15:12 - 00:23:39:17
---
Well that's ok. That's like when we get back to the script of where we're going to be, I'll be like, welcome back to the regularly scheduled EBFC Show. Well Felipe, I was going to say there are questions related to this. Yeah, yeah. Welcome contestant Melanie Lynn Gilbertson all the way from Oklahoma hailing from originally Dallas, Texas. That's right, that's righ..

00:23:39:24 - 00:24:06:01
---
That's awesome. So you you go through all that, you have the training, you stayed very consistent. Clearly, you have a growth mindset. You're addicted to learning. I thank you. That is a true statement. Yes. This is a fact. And it has not stopped. You continue to play and dabble in different areas of things. And and I want to say, like the universe actually yielded some fruit here recently.

00:24:06:15 - 00:24:29:01
---
You and I got to work together. Yes. And co-lead a pull planning session. Yes. I mean, I was just like it's super fun. Now, what do we have? Like, super fun. We'd have like 50 people I don't know how many people that we have, or at least there were well, the room had more than 30, which I think was like the original seating plan.

00:24:29:06 - 00:24:55:09
---
And I want to say there were like at least ten more, maybe 20 more people. So they were perfect. We'll call it 40 people. Yeah, conservative over 40 people. And only one or two besides us. There were full Last Planners had Last Planner experience, which was phenomenal. Or at least spoke up enough that they gave us evidence they had had been through before.

00:24:55:09 - 00:25:20:00
---
I think there were a few, you know, silent folks who are like some sleepers oh yeah. A group that large you got to be like. And I, as an introvert, like, I totally recognize it. Ok, that's fair. But I wanted to share that I learned something from you in that big. As for the decade I've been doing Last Planner only seen a design taking the time to really detail at the group what the month was.

00:25:20:00 - 00:25:37:19
---
But, and, but write it down. Yeah. And you were like at the last second. We were. Of course, Melanie and I were planning how we were going to do this. We planned the day before. Yeah. We preplanned again in the morning, knowing what we learned from the day before to the morning because things change. People, things will change.

00:25:38:16 - 00:26:01:02
---
So we planned and then Melanie said, What if we do this? And I was like, oh, let's try that. And which you've done it before. Yeah, I think it paid dividends. I actually went back to that, that milestone summary in the Awesome later meeting Melanie in a later, people were asking questions about what done will be for this phase.

00:26:01:06 - 00:26:22:23
---
And I was just like, Oh, let me just check it. I want to hope so. And so said this, here it is. And then they were like, Oh yeah, that prevented you from doing a whole bunch of unnecessary work, which wonderful value added baby. I completely agree. And Bonus knew where to find the pictures because I did not like make any sort of fancy document.

00:26:23:07 - 00:27:03:12
---
Absolutely. Read it out to picture, posted it here you go. You even went on vacation and between the end of that to the time that I had to use the stuff and she was so kind as to in seconds, text me the photos and remind me that they were in the place with the most that this place for the team which is to buy due to my not making time for either I didn't know that they were already here but you know where they are this even better like I like knowing that they're in a place where you can remember where to go like that's the getting this personal win that's good.

00:27:03:21 - 00:27:28:17
---
They're paying, they're paying dividends Melanie you know it it's funny about that and I remember talking about this. It's like so we could avoid this step because we had a very compressed time frame. Right. And at the same time ever. And I like I feel like I'm tempted to do so maybe once a year or so. It's like it's like going to long John Silvers, like you need, you know, just have enough time for it to be like, oh, this is why I don't eat here anymore.

00:27:28:17 - 00:27:30:08
---
Like eee right?

00:27:32:10 - 00:27:58:02
---
So know for no offense, Long John Silvers, no offense, Long John Silvers. If, you know, maybe they want to sponsor you, you know, but straight up, I and every time I've been tempted to cut that step out or like, oh, everybody knows what we're doing because people will tell you like, oh, no, no, they all understand. You know what their dry in milestone is to put it back in terms of like production, like, no. Like, why would we assume that?

00:27:58:02 - 00:28:16:14
---
Let's just, let's just get it out on the table and have that conversation and so I've, I've always been sorry when I've skipped it. I've never been sorry when we've done it. So, you know, there's there's my pro tip, like, write down your definition of done. Chances are you will come back to it.

00:28:19:22 - 00:28:42:11
---
So anybody listening, if you're in any kind of scheduling meeting and you're using whatever tool, like, you know, heaven forbid you're using P6 or only P6, excuse me, heaven forbid you're only using P6 or Wrike just to throw out some other names or Microsoft Project. I don't want to just let people think there's one way or Excel, you could do Excel too.

00:28:43:12 - 00:29:05:10
---
And if you don't write down, expand the summary of what that milestone is because like usually a milestone is five words. Yeah, that's not descriptive enough. It doesn't make sense of like what's in this? And your, your team is very likely a brand new team where this the first time you're all working together and you have different vocabulary.

00:29:06:12 - 00:29:40:11
---
So get it out on the table like Melanie said. People... Yeah. Make yourself a solid. It is worth the time. It has helped it has helped our team multiple times over the course of a month to not make things that nobody wants. Yes. Nobody nobody likes wasting their time all right. Let's be real. And I think it's even it's like it's probably the most critical in design is understanding, you know, ok the contractor is expecting some sort of deliverable, like what should be in it and what shouldn't be in it.

00:29:40:21 - 00:30:00:24
---
Right. You know, and if there's something that you haven't heard the contractor ask for that you think would be a good idea, like ask the question. Don't just assume that we all learn something. And I'm a huge fan of like, I want to know why about everything. So I'm just going to ask. But I know not everybody is is that way.

00:30:01:00 - 00:30:21:14
---
So some people don't have that patience and they just want to start getting to doing the work. I'm like, But what are you rushing to do? Yeah, you're rushing to do busy work, too, so you can feel like you're busy. Like we need to check that anxiety. Let's all take a deep breath and come back to center. The project is still going to go like you're going to you're going to have delays.

00:30:22:08 - 00:30:42:04
---
I always tell people, like, I didn't realize and appreciate this Melanie until I was on a job that went, you know, over schedule and we... We went to court. Litigated. Yeah. I realize there are so many times analyzing the past schedule where we thought something was like super critical and we worked until like 10:00 at night, 11:00 at night.

00:30:42:04 - 00:31:08:10
---
We worked Saturdays and Sundays, and then we still it, it didn't give us anything at the end. 12 years of litigation to and, and I just kept thinking like all those times I thought this was like the most important, critical thing. And I sacrificed like family time, personal health. And if I just would have stopped and thought about giving myself like even an hour to plan the work, I could have avoided all that nonsense.

00:31:08:12 - 00:31:30:19
---
Yeah, completely avoidable. But apparently some of us have to learn the hard way. Yeah. I think one of the best tools that has like helped me with this bias too, because I'm totally like, once a decision is made, like, oh, a decision made like we are going down that path, you know, probably because I spent a lot of time deliberating the decision and then, you know, ok, now it's time to move.

00:31:30:19 - 00:31:51:23
---
But I think A3's, like that, the problem solving process and not necessarily documentation, but the problem solving process of developing that. A3, you know, especially taking time to ok, what is the current state? Like I'm not just going to assume I know what the problem is, but what is the current state? You know, then what's what's our goal in that analysis step?

00:31:51:23 - 00:32:22:24
---
Like that whole left side of the page before you move on to the right side of the page where the action is like that's such a critical piece of like slowing down and understanding like just what what is it I'm trying to accomplish here? So if you guys don't take time to do a three. So like one of my personal like favorite tools for really, really understanding the problem precisely because it's helped me, you know, eliminate some of that bias to action that we're prone to as humans, you know?

00:32:23:15 - 00:32:47:02
---
Right. I love that. And people, if you're listening to the show, check the show notes. We've written a blog post about A3's with some template examples and some tips so you can get started. I've helped people, Melanie, that have never had A3's create one in less than 10 minutes, not finished. Right. They stay on the left side and yeah, you're going to love this.

00:32:47:02 - 00:33:07:23
---
We had the last group of people I did this with. They said we realized we were doing the current state, that we don't know enough information. We have to go see this process. And I was just I almost fell on the ground like often. But before before they started, they were like, Yeah, I had the answer. But do you?

00:33:08:04 - 00:33:28:11
---
And then and then they would process it like, oh my God, we don't really know what the problem is. And I was like, YES!. So worth it, You know, yes. And I think I think that's great advice because honestly, I think the best way to learn how to do A3's is to do them. Like, that's how you get better and that's how you get better at anything, frankly.

00:33:28:11 - 00:33:52:04
---
But like, just go do it. Like, don't think about, Oh, I'll do this next week. Like, no, just like start putting your thoughts down, like as fine. Nobody is grading you on it and even if you like, write it down on a whiteboard or yeah, a piece of spare paper. I've taken like junk mail and like just flipped over the letter offering me like 0% APR and just like started an A3 on the back.

00:33:52:06 - 00:34:15:05
---
Yeah, yeah. You can do all kinds of cool stuff with it. So I travel with you can you can sit here, my travel folder right here. I actually. Ladies and gentlemen. This is me travel folder. I do. I travel enough like I travel with the blank A3 just in case the mood strikes when I'm on the plane or whatever.

00:34:15:12 - 00:34:43:01
---
Just in case the mood strikes. Hey, I am totally one of it's like the plane time is thinking time, so I never know what random thought is going to occur that like, I have 2 hours without Wi-Fi. Like here we go. Let's let's put our thoughts down. That's amazing. Two hours without Wi-Fi, whips out the blank A3. But what do you do for fun?

00:34:43:08 - 00:35:03:12
---
I would have to think about that. I've got a flight later today and I'm like, and this is the moment where if I had that blank A3. Yeah, the mood has struck and I'm maybe you bring your junk mail like you don't you don't have to have the fancy template I also have a travel folder that I travel with that has A3's in it.

00:35:03:12 - 00:35:25:11
---
My three template is just blank. There's nothing in it. That's my, my thought process. I don't know people. I don't know if you know this, but I tend to talk a lot and my A3's start the same way where the left side becomes page one, page two, and then later I consolidate it. But they almost always start out like a page and a half, and then I consolidate all that left side stuff.

00:35:25:16 - 00:35:47:13
---
Oh yeah, you got to, you got to distill it down to like, all right, what's really going to, you know, tell other people that at least that's the criteria I was use. Like, how am I going to tell people the most pertinent point that really says this is why this is a problem? Right? Because I mean, I know there's there might be some detail.

00:35:47:13 - 00:36:07:07
---
I don't know if this ever came across, but I guarantee it has like very detail oriented person. Oh, we were we were at an event and I was like at the moment that I thought it'd be nice to have a dry erase marker. Melanie placed one in my hand. Always prepared, she's like, I thought you might need one.

00:36:07:07 - 00:36:25:04
---
So here and just boom, right to my hand. And I had it and it just I recently just killed it ran it out like not too long ago. When I was traveling with them. And also, every time I'd, I'd go into my little bag because I also have a bag of supplies. I thought you should. I'd have my...

00:36:25:13 - 00:36:47:08
---
I have my bag, Flintco branded dry erase whiteboard marker that I was using all over the country the last couple of years. It's that's awesome. But our old logo on it, I think. Yeah, it did before the merger. And I'll have to see if, if I can get you new and if I can find a new one. You're getting one or the other.

00:36:47:08 - 00:37:08:02
---
Yeah, just. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll go track one down. I'm going to and let me get out my sticky notes oh yeah. Just write that down. Right. Have sticky notes on the ready as well. Yeah. You never know. Never know. Do I mean, I don't know if you intended this to dove into a school supply list, but, like, it's going to be real.

00:37:08:10 - 00:37:39:17
---
So having the right supplies is half like it makes for an easier meeting. All right, so, yeah, we. Yeah, it's also worth while she's writing down that note people, when, Melanie and I found out we were going to work together, it was, like, amazing, number one. And number two, I saw, like, some emails getting exchanged where she was making sure all the supplies were set at the time, so we would not be caught flat footed without sticky notes and and supplies.

00:37:39:17 - 00:37:56:07
---
And it was like, oh, my God, it's amazing. Hey, shout out to Joy as well. Who, Lady after my own heart. Like Joy, you know who you are? You you were on the ball. I think she's more on the ball about supplies than I was I think Joy is more on the ball about details than even you and I are combined.

00:37:56:16 - 00:38:26:08
---
That is a true, true statement. So, ok my last, last pro-tip on school supplies. Name tags people. Travel with name tags. I have just off camera. Melanie, based on your recommendation, I've been using name tags all month with the trainings I've been doing. Thanks to you, does it not make facilitation easier if nothing else? And you know, it's not even so much for me because I can remember 40 to 50 people's names in a room as long as they can.

00:38:26:08 - 00:38:49:02
---
Yeah. Switching. Yeah. But they. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so that's good for everyone to see because and people, if you're out there and you've ever gone to an event, even if you're at the same company or you're in the same organization, you don't know each other as well as you think you do. And having having that first name, name tag just makes it so much easier to, to engage.

00:38:49:14 - 00:39:16:20
---
Yeah. And then everybody's got the same uniform on, like there's no judgment for, oh, you can't remember people's names. Like, Look, we're all getting older. Remembering people's names is hard. It can be hard. If you think it's hard, it is hard. But if it's easy, then it's easy. It's easy. It's hard for some people, it's hard for some people. It's just coming to work as hard. True.

00:39:17:15 - 00:39:44:01
---
Yeah. For some people, being kind is a challenge and a difficulty because their default mode is a-hole. Yeah, and that's unfortunate for for them. Ooh. We could go deep, like deep down philosophical path. And as soon as I said that, I'm sure like everybody listening, just Rolodex flashed names and faces of like, all the a-holes they have to work with on a daily basis or sometimes they're in your own family.

00:39:44:10 - 00:40:07:09
---
I mean, let's not, let's not just keep it to work. It could be anywhere. It's true. It's an epidemic some might say. Another reason why I love Scrum so much. When Jeff wrote about why it's so effective and it works, using the framework helps to identify who the a-holes are and a path to eliminate them or just to get them to behave better.

00:40:07:15 - 00:40:35:22
---
I love that. You know, I. I enjoy Scrum immensely. Like the structured approach to it. Like, I just. I really like it. Part of my favorite part is how all of a sudden, you know, you can take effort. Like everybody knows, effort is required to accomplish task, but like being able to objectify that and give it a quantity and like, now I can compare it to other things like that is that's my favorite part about it.

00:40:35:22 - 00:41:13:14
---
Like, I love it. It's awesome. Next level. Yeah. Another surprise for people. Bellone and Felipe both like Scrum surprise yeah. No, not at all. But it's awesome. Like, it is awesome. It's, it's helped me personally. Just try and keep a sustainable level of productive or productivity, I should say, during the week, you know? And so, like, I know if, you know my, my weekly effort is, you know, above a certain range, like, OK, I can do that for a week, but like, that's not sustainable for me.

00:41:13:14 - 00:41:34:19
---
And guess what? About two or three weeks of, you know, this higher higher output come week four seems to be the trend from what I've observed of the past 12 months, like I'm going to crash and it's going to be a terrible week after being unsustainable for the weeks before. So it's been it's been good for the mental health I think.

00:41:35:14 - 00:42:08:02
---
Super good. Yeah. It's better to do just a touch less. I always tell people like let's let's be selfish and lazy and use Scrum to our advantage to do as little as humanly possible. And when you do that and it's like, yeah, you're laughing, it's funny but when you do less but you're being really conscientious about is it necessary or not more intentional, you end up just contributing much more value and you can be more effective with way less.

00:42:08:23 - 00:42:26:09
---
Yes, you do have a limit like all of us have. There's only so much we can show up with and do on a given day. There's only so much production and to sustain it over a long time, like you said, and I love that you're experimenting over the last year with what your levels at. Yeah, I have to exchange notes on that later.

00:42:26:09 - 00:42:30:03
---
I want to. I've got a chart. Same, right? Yeah.

00:42:33:06 - 00:43:03:02
---
Charts, plural. I yeah. I have a before and after chart too. Yeah. Ooh, that's good. I wish I had a before chart that would be, you know, meetings that I've been to with you in both training and at LCI events, which we've been on multiple. Yeah. Congress Planning Committee. Yes. And champion reviews and all kinds of stuff. And and where, where do you attribute like that decision for how you show up?

00:43:03:02 - 00:43:21:09
---
Because the way you show up at anything and people listening, if you ever get a chance, if you just see Melanie's name on something, you just need to be there. Like get yourself there. You will not be disappointed. But where does that enthusiasm come from for how you show up with so much positivity? Can you pinpoint it or.

00:43:21:09 - 00:43:24:03
---
Oh, thank you. That's such a nice compliment.

00:43:27:12 - 00:44:08:24
---
I know my natural sparkle. OK, you know, I like I think a lot of it is like I want people to at the end of the day, like personally, I want people to walk away, you know, thinking that it was a valuable use of their time. And I always, you know, for better or for worse, like I try and put myself in other people's shoes or probably more, you know, if I were in the audience, like what experience what I want to get out of it and so, like, it's just it's a lot easier to, you know, sit through a presentation where you're listening to somebody who has rehearsed what they're going to say or,

00:44:08:24 - 00:44:39:15
---
you know, is passionate about what they're going to they're going to use presentations because I feel like that's a lot of what I do recently. But even, you know, like a meeting like a good agenda, you know, where you sort of like you've been deliberate about like, ok here's how long I think this discussion should take and here's, you know, a good discussion is and we want to make sure we have time to recap our action items and have a plus delta, you know, make sure we set meeting ground rules like set the basic niceties like it just makes it a more valuable interaction.

00:44:41:01 - 00:44:57:10
---
So I think if you if you come at it from that approach, you know, and just try and have a little kindness for your fellow human beings, you know, not necessarily like because you work with them, but because think it's just more enjoyable at the end of the day, if if you all like what you're doing or you you know, you're not sitting you're just another meeting.

00:44:57:10 - 00:45:22:14
---
Like, why wouldn't you do that? So I guess that's in a nutshell, that's that's the philosophy behind all the rest of it. So you delivered you delivered in spades. Like I was wanting to see what is the underlying belief and philosophy for how you show up. And now now I know and I'm glad you shared it because a lot of people don't put that much thought into like making just a meeting.

00:45:22:20 - 00:45:47:03
---
Something like that can be positive. Yeah. To get things done. And you touched on respect for people like that is just a game changer and that and that's why I said like every time I've shown up to something where you've been there, it's that way. You've elevated all those interactions for me. And I keep telling people, I keep telling Melanie like, I have so much fun.

00:45:47:03 - 00:46:10:15
---
When we get to work together, we get to interact. And she's always like in almost like a disbelief, like the beginning of the show. Like I've been a fan of Melanie since before she really knew who I was, like instantly because of how she shows up. And if you get a chance to go to anything she's doing, you have to go because you will see exactly what I'm talking about, what I've been experiencing every time.

00:46:11:08 - 00:46:33:18
---
And even what you mentioned down like in a meeting, getting the ground rules for how we're going to talk to each other. I saw you do that recently and we went through that and people really felt like open like people show up and we heard things and the owner had commented like I heard feedback from the executives multiple times.

00:46:34:06 - 00:46:57:15
---
The owner said, I've never seen a team come together this early and are talking about an owner with like 20 plus years of experience. That's thousands of projects, billions of dollars worth of experience. And they said they've never seen a team come together like this. And when I went back there, what could be causing this level of, you know, interaction?

00:46:58:09 - 00:47:31:20
---
It wasn't that the team was just meeting like five days a week. This a lot of teams do that. Yeah, it was how you set this environment. And people really just opened up and we heard collaboration happening and we've got to see it and it was just like magic! I mean, I probably like, you know, something, something I can hit on the, you know, for that it was like when when the architects all sitting at the same table started talking to other designers and asking the contractors questions.

00:47:31:23 - 00:47:55:09
---
Yeah. And the contractors standing up in the plus delta because of course Melanie made sure we did a plus delta. Absolutely. It's nonnegotiable. One of the one of the contractors said this is the first time I've ever been invited to something this early in. And it was valuable for me. I was like, ok yeah, that was that was way cool.

00:47:55:09 - 00:48:15:18
---
And this this was a guy who, you know, didn't talk a whole lot at the meeting, but just the fact that he was was there and had all that context, I think was super. So don't just assume, you know, if this person isn't going to have a speaking role, that it's not valuable you could always ask them, you know, what do you think?

00:48:15:18 - 00:48:46:14
---
Would your attendance here be valuableor not and I let them make the decision. But from very practical standpoint are meeting ground rules. That's another one of those things. Like any time I've eliminated it, I've always been, sorry, what's it like? It just it's even you know, let's say you're in a single wide trailer and you've got, you know, five, four men who have never been any sort of you know, we meeting before or whatever, like everybody has, you know, has been through a bad meeting.

00:48:47:08 - 00:49:25:11
---
And so just getting them to like open up and, you know, you get to know people's names that way. And here's what their pet peeve is. I think it's a great way to start the conversation and get people engaged. And you come out of it with like, here's the expected behavior as professionals. You know, not a lot of meetings, too many where we bring people in to the meeting environment and some of them have really it could be their first time meeting with better people and mix and they don't know, like what's acceptable behavior, what's not we call that cultural norms, project team norms.

00:49:25:11 - 00:49:42:11
---
And those things are visible. You don't know until after the fact. And if you just set the rules, you create some boundary conditions that people can, oh, I know how to act now and they can be very successful and they can be more creative and flexible and contribute at a higher level. Just assume that they know what to do.

00:49:42:22 - 00:50:11:01
---
Then you're planning to fail. Yes. Don't just assume, period. Exactly. And just make that a blanket statement like ask questions. Do ability to just ask questions like I just want to know, like, just just think of it that way. Like, I just want to confirm I just want to know, like, oh, all of these things. Yes. Something else I wish I wish were a norm were like more people had set standards for email etiquette you know?

00:50:12:09 - 00:50:33:16
---
Oh, my right. Like, I think I think that's the next level. Like, ok we have in-person meeting ground rules like some standardization around email etiquette. I could totally get behind, you know, for one thing, use your subject line, people. No big subject lines like let's be clear on what you're asking for. It's a request. Put the request in the subject line.

00:50:33:19 - 00:50:48:18
---
Yeah. Like I won't be offended. I promise. Like help a sister out and we only have so much time of the day and like, I can only hit delete so many times of my keyboard before it becomes annoying. Yes, true statement.

00:50:51:15 - 00:51:12:01
---
I want to ask I want to ask you, as part of just getting this out into the ethos because you have so much experience, I think I'd be a fail to the audience if we didn't pick OU and because of your your expertise and just your tremendous amount of success, like, let's not downplay that for a second. Very successful.

00:51:12:01 - 00:51:34:02
---
Melanie, what do you say to people that when they hear the word Lean, they kind of get scared or they have some apprehensions because they might have seen something? What what do you say to them when you get a sense that they think Leanne's a bad thing? I'm sure this will come as a shock at this point. My, my default is actually to ask them like more specifics.

00:51:35:08 - 00:51:55:17
---
You know, was it was it a bad experience or you know, like just try and dove a little bit more into that experience and then try and transition it to well here's how, how we approach it. Like I, you know, I've obviously worked for Flintco so like I'm going to, you know, focus on like here's how we approach it at Flintco.

00:51:55:17 - 00:52:21:17
---
It's like on your shirt. Ok, I represent like team jersey right here. Yeah. But that's like I think getting an understanding of of what about it is, you know, is are they apprehensive because it just seems new and unfamiliar. And, you know, they've been on a journey where there's been ten different initiatives and like, oh, my gosh, I just can't take, you know, another corporate initiative.

00:52:21:17 - 00:52:40:08
---
This can die in a year like because that was their previous experience. Or is it, you know, they previously worked on a project where it was a poor experience. And so then you can kind of, ok now that I understand like what the, you know, potential pitfalls are like now we can talk about like, well, here's how this is different.

00:52:41:16 - 00:53:06:12
---
But at the end of the day, like the thing that I always fall back on like this is my personal approach. This is this is how, you know, I hope we are as a company approaching it. At Flintco, this is what I see is like if we're not adding value to what we're doing and especially you know, if it's there's anything that, you know, any process, practice, documentation, whatever we're doing that we call Lean that you don't feel like is adding value like I want to know about it.

00:53:06:23 - 00:53:29:05
---
Because everything that we do, everything that we do should add value. But particularly like if it, you know, has Lean as a term like it should be adding value so if it's not like that's an opportunity for improvement or maybe that's you know I can explain like here's why I think it value and like I want to know from you if if you don't think that it is, you know, an example that comes to mind.

00:53:29:05 - 00:54:00:03
---
We do a monthly survey. We ask all of our lead projects to submit a self-assessment on, you know, how are you doing meeting the minimum standards for each of our or five standard practices that we expect to be put in place. And there's some other like supplementary questions to that and it has been growing in length for some time as we have tried to narrow in on. Ok, if we ask more pointed questions or maybe this question serves as a reminder and of course, we're getting a lot of feedback that sounds like used to be ten questions and that's 50.

00:54:01:06 - 00:54:21:00
---
Yeah, yeah. Like I, I hear you loud and clear but you know, then that's, that hopefully offers up a conversation, you know, talk about like, well, here's why we're asking those questions and here's how we can use this data, you know, not only to look at, you know, how to help you guys on the project, but also to help everybody at the company.

00:54:21:09 - 00:54:40:17
---
You know, we're everybody within the office, like, here's here's the global view of that. And if you, you know, can explain your point of view as long as you're willing to be open minded. And here, you know, I hear you like I want to be challenged. Like, I think that that's the that's at least showing respect for people and you get some really good ideas out of it.

00:54:40:17 - 00:54:58:20
---
So, like, why would you not do that? You know, so long winded answer, like if we're not adding the short answer to how it to that question is, like if we're not adding value to anything that we call we then we need to do something about it. There's an opportunity for improvement. There are we need to fix it, you know?

00:54:58:23 - 00:55:23:01
---
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Love that answer. The long and the short. I like how people listening. In my mind, I was tracing like little flywheel loop and always a loop. I see. I saw her like she looked, she got she did a quick little feedback check herself and then gave you the value added summary. Just value delivered value deliver more value delivery.

00:55:23:08 - 00:55:46:11
---
Melanie, it has been my absolute pleasure and honor having you join me on the show to share your insights, wisdom, nuggets, knowledge, enthusiasm and positivity. I want to give you the last words thinking about for the people listening that have spent this beautiful glorious hour with us, what's something that you want to leave them thinking about as they go off and start their day or continue on what they're doing?

00:55:47:03 - 00:56:21:04
---
Ooh, that's... Ok I got to ponder that for a minute. I guess I would say this goes for anything, whether it's a Lean practice, a new skill or something you want to try with a team, like just go do it like there is no substitute for learning by doing that is absolutely like if you have a great idea, like just go test it out so there's so this this was from Congress a couple of years ago, but it's, it's posted.

00:56:21:16 - 00:56:42:21
---
I don't know. Can you see that? I don't know. Nothing is a mistake. There's no in and no fail. There's only eight. Yeah. So this is the keynote speaker, the guy from I think IDEO and Amazon Web Services. Forget your name. I'm really sorry. But like, it's been posted for me. I've been stuck in this. Like, I hate failing.

00:56:42:21 - 00:57:04:02
---
You know, everybody does. Right. But going into it with this approach, like now the only way you're going to get better is probably to fail and to make mistakes and to learn from that, regardless of what it is, just try to keep that in mind. So whatever whatever you're apprehensive about doing, just get started. Just go make. Yeah.

00:57:04:05 - 00:57:29:04
---
Very special thanks to my guest. I'm Felipe Engineer-Manriquez. The EBFC Show is created by Felipe and produced by a passion to build easier and better. Thanks for listening. Stay safe, everybody. Let's go build!