Combating the Bungee Effect with Lean Principles - Jason Schroeder

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Hopefully we get better today but even seeing you like i

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i feel my my immune system like

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getting stronger just by seeing you you know so i

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was taking a trip down memory lane and i

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was looking back to when we first connected on linkedin jason and

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it was it was like right when everything was changing it

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was like 2020 magical year you

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were you were moving off starting your own thing at elevate

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and looking at your linkedin numbers this morning 27 000

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congratulations my friend thank you that's a

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number of followers i'm 20 000 behind you you

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have far surpassed me and i'm so proud to be

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your friend and see like what you've done and i even have

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your your book i'm just going to just gush all over you

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you know i've got my my autograph jason copy

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and i was preparing for this interview

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and thinking about all the cool stuff you did and and

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you're such a like a book bandit you just crush steal

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time from god knows where to publish these

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books and yeah i just noticed on this book on the cover it says.

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Book one yeah there will be more yeah that's

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that's it's okay every one of those images in

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that book kate did so it's there's a lot of over processing in

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that one actually i would make the image and sketch it one of

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our lean tact engineers would then do it

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and then kate would turn it into a consistent format

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for all of the images in the the book because she said

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don't write some boring lots of texts

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book jason people are tired of that so

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it was really highly visual that took

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a lot of time but book two is tax steering and control and

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then book three will tie into

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the integrated production control system and i

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i'm really excited about both of them i just need to get started on

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the third so yeah yeah and

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i know you will will absolutely know you will how's your book how's your book

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doing that's a that's you have a fantastic book by the way thank you yeah that

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book is doing well is that good every month i get an email from amazon says

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congratulations you will receive royalty payments this month and i'm always

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like i act the same way every every month i'm like.

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Oh my gosh. It's been doing really well. It's been selling internationally.

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And I mean, the U S is the number one place, but also internationally,

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we've made it free on Kindle and limited the whole entire time.

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I did notes from some folks overseas that Kindle limited doesn't always work

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depending on what country they're in.

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So people, if you're listening out there, you're in some place and you can't

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get it, just message me. We'll figure out a way to get, get a copy your way.

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And if you message Felipe, you're in for a treat. he's

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a good guy are you still just as nice as you always were always

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yeah that's cool every now and then find uh people that you blocked and make

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friends with them every now i've only blocked seven people it's not that big

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of a deal that's amazing you take your sweatshirt off your lean tech branded

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sweatshirt and you have a lean tech polo underneath it yeah i love i love these.

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And so the the i think i've

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changed my tune with the arguing with

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people on linkedin i think i'm more open to having empathy

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and connecting with people there's a lot of grumpy people out

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there though uh so so i've i've i've repented of

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my ways with that well we even have some i mean some i would

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classify some of the friends that i have as being super grumpy and

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and it's kind of weird it's like they almost take on a different persona

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when we're on social media than when they're you know talking

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to you one-on-one yeah it's i always think

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like okay they're they're wrapped up in the

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perceptions and their experiences so they haven't

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had my experiences and they were just gonna have

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a different take and yeah maybe i could may i always say this now jason i used

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to say i always will learn something from them yeah say maybe i will learn something

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but i've softened a little bit the other way yeah that's funny well the conversation

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i learned the other day that the The reason people get so violent on,

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or at least one theory in social media is because they don't have proximity.

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They can't see face-to-face, hug, touch, discuss, be around them later.

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They don't live in the same town, root for the same football team.

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And I thought, hey, that's something. It's really easy to get mad and other

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or demonize other people when you're not near them all the time.

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And it's probably just pretty natural. You know what I mean?

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So I'm a little bit more patient about it. So you're a good example for me.

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Thank you. Yeah, I was, I got up to it at my, when I was scheduling well and everything was good.

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I got to about five posts a day, which was crazy.

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It was crazy good. I mean, it was so much fun, Jason, like, you know what it

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is, but then, you know, I'd realizing like, well, sometimes I would post because

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using the schedule, I couldn't react to people and have the dialogue back and forth.

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So like I get back to about two and I think for me, the sweet spot is like one

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to two per day. That way the right type of engagement.

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That's awesome. I, Andrew, did you get, did you see a lot of results from that?

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Like more, so obviously some more people reaching out, more people implementing

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scrum. That's awesome. Ton more.

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I've been getting a lot more people that I've never met, ever heard of.

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Like recently, I was talking to somebody over the holidays about scrum and what's

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the difference between like a registered scrum master, certified scrum master,

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and then like a professional scrum master.

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I started to realize, man, there's a lot of scrum competition training out there.

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So I was just of saying first i always answer with i'm biased

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because i'm a registered scrum master i'm also a certified scrum

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master and i maintain both credentials but

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i'm a registered scrum trainer so i'm biased towards whatever scrum

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inc is doing because that's where that's where my bread's buttered and

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and where all innovation comes from and the patterns and

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we co-created the construction design and construction

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scrum course so that when i tell people like as

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far as i know there's no no other design and construction

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course out there but if you find it let me know so

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i'm biased saying that this one is the best one

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for you because we use examples patterns implementations

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and experiences that are for us in

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our industry you know others because most of

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the other scrum stuff is super heavy software and it because that's

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where it's for a long long time and we have

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even more case study examples you know

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more people and i still to this day jason you hold the

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record for most questions asked during and i

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had the last course that i taught this december people

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were asking like how many questions did jason ask and

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i said you're not even halfway to where he was yet so well

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this scrum is game changing i mean i'm preaching in choir with you but i didn't

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understand the things i needed to understand until i took your course and in

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fact would you mind if i shared a quick thought with you and see if you can

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lead me down the right road yeah let's do it so that Yeah, and I was telling

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Hal this on a podcast just the other day.

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And by the way, full transparency, Kate hates this name.

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So we're going to have to rename it, structure it, and make it a concept that

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will stick. But I called it the bungee effect.

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And what it was is when we start to trade stack or trade burden and overlap

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our trades to where they're either stacked multiple people in one area or burdened

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where they're in too many areas.

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That because of that list that you teach in your course of you now are batching

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work, you have context switching, larger team size, additional complexity in communication.

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Now you're changing leaders, you're changing crew compositions.

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Now you're doing needless or unnecessary or useless onboarding.

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And then you stop installing work right the first time, which means you have rework.

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And then you stop looking out ahead for roadblocks, you

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stop removing roadblocks and your product oh and then you start working

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overtime and there's this productivity spiral and

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the for anybody listening on the podcast like

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when you overlap a day that whether

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it's it springs back or springs back

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two to three days it'll it when you when you

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overlap it it'll bungee back because trades

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just can't do it right and so those i think i counted and 14 of them and they're

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all for anybody listening they're all concepts felipe taught me and then other

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lean people would say well they have always been lean and felipe and the group

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looped them into scrum i don't know what happened but scrum training is what taught me them.

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They spring it back and i believe that

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if superintendents and people in the industry understood the bungee

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effect or whatever we want to call it they would understand that

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it's not a a viable solution for for accelerating

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schedules and even scrum which i

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love by the way we got scrum everywhere at elevate and

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lean tech scrum it doesn't tell you to trade burden or

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trade stack they tell you to if i unless i have it wrong to protect the team

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and to collaboratively use that scrum board with your your your sprint planning

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and your review and your retrospectives and so So this is also a nimble system

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that does not hurt trades.

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And so when you hear that, and let me put you on the spot, Felipe,

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when you hear about that bungee effect, you named the tech production system.

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So I'm thinking, do you have a name for that?

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What? Oh, and here's my question. How can we get that popularized,

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marketed, or named in a way that everyone will, oh yeah, if you do that,

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you'll get the bungee effect.

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Or like, teach me. Yeah, you know, I'm not, I'm not disliking the bungee effect.

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Sorry, Kate, but as you described it, I mean, for people listening,

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I'm huge on context and what Jason's talking about absolutely does happen.

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There will be times during a project where people make decisions to,

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you know, to force trades into areas because they're available.

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It's a side effect of, of a low planning environment.

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The higher you plan, you would never sacrifice and push people into areas where

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they shouldn't be because you know that it's going to take focus off of where you're planning to go.

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So you're going to delay your milestones. But the people look at and superintendents,

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I feel for you, all the superintendents out there.

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And I've been a superintendent when you, when you've got like 10 crews or three

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crews, or sometimes even just four people in front of you that need something

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to do, you want to to not let them be at work being unutilized because you've been trained.

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Everything in your training says, I have people, I've got to keep people busy.

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This is the mantra of most super tents is unspoken.

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And so what Jason was describing is like something has interrupted your plan

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and you've decided to move people into areas just to make them busy.

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Like Jason described, putting people in multiple locations, doing all those things.

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What you've done is you've broken your plan or you've

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you've adapted you think you're adapting to to do something

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well sometimes it's better to to slow people

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down and say okay we can't you know do this stop let's replan yeah planning

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and this is one of the scrum patterns that we talk about so one one antidote

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for what jason described would be to bring the key people and you don't have

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to bring in the entire job site bring the key people in and do a quick replanning

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sometimes you can do it between just two trades trades,

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sometimes it's only just the issue of one trade.

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It's rare to be the entire job site. Like the job sites are so big that people

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can continue working and make progress on the plan.

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But you mean you might need to bring in one, two, maybe four of the trades. Maybe.

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Welcome to the EBFC show, the easier, better for construction podcast.

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I'm your host, Felipe, engineer, Manriquez. This show is all about the business of construction.

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Today's show is also sponsored by the Lean Construction Institute.

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LCI is working to lead the building industry and transforming its practices and culture.

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Its vision is to create a healthy and thriving industry that delivers outstanding

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project outcomes every time for everyone.

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Check the show notes for more information.

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Now, to the show. Depending on like what type of, and Jason and I are on jobs

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from, you know, thousands of dollars to billions of dollars.

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Yeah. Like this works at the very large as well as the very small.

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Bring people in, do a quick planning.

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I'm talking to like 20 to 30 minutes with the right people that can make decisions

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on bungee, the bungee cord. Because Jason's right.

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What's going to happen is that they're going to stretch out to make this temporary thing happen.

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Yes. Yes. And they're going to, they're going to bungee back.

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And that bungee back is unpredictable.

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Just like the bungee cord, Jason. So I'm like, I'm doubling down on this bungee.

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I love it. It's going to be the bungee effect as coined by Jason Schroeder. And sleep engineer.

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We're going to promote this to show people what happens. And then when that

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bungee comes back, unpredictably, you've lost flow on the job.

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So if you don't intervene and you let it just bungee back, and no matter what

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you think is going to happen, it will absolutely bungee back.

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Because eventually they're going to get past that constraint,

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that bottleneck, and people are going to try to get back on plan.

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But they're going to try to do it by themselves, sub-optimized.

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Because the people's view of their work is just too narrow. It's by design with specialization.

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You can't overcome it. The only way to overcome it is to increase knowledge flow.

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And the only way you're going to increase knowledge flow, unfortunately,

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is to bring people in and have some kind of visual to represent the work, which is what I love.

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I'm a huge TAC fan. I mean, just even look at the cover of Jason's book.

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Just on the cover, the TAC, it's impossible not to see the structure in that TAC plan.

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And if you have something like that, or if you're pool planning using last planner

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system, or if you're using scrum and, and, you know, I always say if you're

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using tact or last planner system, you're using versions of scrum. Yep.

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And I say that all the time and I show people. And so they know I've got,

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I've got YouTube videos on this topic, not to the beauty, the beauty of Jason's

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level, but I'm a huge Jason fan, but the bungee effect to overcome that increase

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the communication flow.

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So let people visually see what the new plan is after you've come through that.

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If you're in a bungee zone now and it's already shrinking back,

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you can still bring people in and replan and make it visual,

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implement a tact or implement a small plan.

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Whole plan or implement a small scrum to get through that hurdle and then back

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tracking towards your milestone.

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And if you're on the job and you're not even like tracking towards a milestone

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within a four week span, then my God, go to lean tax web, a YouTube channel

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right now and start watching Jason's videos.

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Just binge watch all those videos, go back to the earliest video and just binge

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watch them to the present.

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You've got to have a way to navigate and steer steer this project.

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Otherwise the project steers itself.

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And when it steers itself, you're going to have a whole bunch of punch list work.

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And Jason, what you're describing, that bungee effect, let's not forget the

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second order consequences.

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So the first order consequences is that you're, you're pushing people, burdening them.

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The stress for the workers is going up in the moment because you're now trying

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to make them be in multiple places at once or working with people too close

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to them, which creates danger and safety issues.

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When you just pile Pile too many people together.

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There are limits of space and how much space people need to do their work correctly

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at a high level of quality with pride.

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And if you crush people in or you force people into these tighter conditions

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with too many people or trying to be in too many spots at once,

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you're decreasing their ability to have pride in their work,

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decreasing their ability to be focused. You're increasing the chances of safety issues.

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You're definitely increasing punch list issues and you're going to be on a job

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with lots of back charges. So you're making a ton of work for the management

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side after the fact to clean up what you're doing, trying to do your best intentions in the field.

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This bungee effect has these second-order consequences, third-order consequences.

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Here's the third-order consequence. If you do that enough as a pattern in the

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work that you're doing, your company is going to pay higher prices for work than is necessary.

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Versus teams like that Jason and I work with where we can reduce punch lists

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down to just handfuls of items because the quality goes way up when you can

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plan the work and when people know where they're going to work, as Jason famously says.

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Trade flow, logistical flow,

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And a crew for trade flow, logistical flow, which is workflow workflow.

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Yeah. Cool me down, Jason. Say it. It's going to sound better.

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Sorry. Work, workflow, trade flow and logistical flow. Yeah.

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Workflow. Like where are the trades going? What are we, where are we headed towards?

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Where is the materials going any given day? Right.

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Where are the crews going day by day so that you can see you've got a level work.

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What I love most about, And I learned how to level work way better in Jason's

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course, in his TAC training course, which I highly recommend to everybody.

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I became a TAC master with Jason.

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Jason taught me how to level crews in a very intuitive and easy way.

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And I think, Jason, did you ever go to the Berkeley training that they used to do, P2SL for TAC?

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So we sent some of our engineers there to learn.

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And without sharing any of their tools, they shared the concepts.

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And that's primarily where we learned work density

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leveling yeah and yeah so do

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we we learn quite a bit from that course

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yes i learned some basic stuff from that

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course as well and then when i came to your course years later it's like everything

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just unlocked it was like just perfect unlocking like oh remember this from

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that course and then when i saw like how to how you'd systematized it it just

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it just seems so easy to do i've even taken like the basics of like how to to

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create a TAC plan and scrummed it.

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And I show people, here's how you do it. You take creating a TAC plan and just run it through scrum.

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And then you, it's very easy to do. And Jason has done a great job on his site with the TAC template.

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And it's like step-by-step guidance like even one of

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the pages on your tag template workbook had like six or

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seven steps maybe eight steps on the left side and then you make your attack

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plan on the right side yeah i mean you just can't make it any easier people

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like jason and i always joke like even a bad tag plan will outperform a good

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cpm schedule every year yeah yeah yeah fungi effect,

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so and i love that the other thing i love is your the unintended consequences which you brought up

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which I didn't have on my mind and needs to always pair with the teaching of

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the bungee effect is that if somebody was like, well, if I do stack,

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what are my exact consequences?

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Well, you don't know. Like that could be a long tail.

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Like they say in the book, how big things get done. Like it.

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Oh my God. You, you're like, are you in my room, Jason? Cause I got that book right here on my desk.

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I'm, I'm like in love with that book. I feel like they went,

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I feel like, well, this is arrogant.

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I'll just say it. Everybody's just going to have to forgive me.

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I feel like in that book, they took all the things that we're talking about

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as lean influencers and was like, oh, well, let me just go ahead and do a study

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for you to prove that it's real.

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It's like, oh my gosh, this is exactly what we're talking about.

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And the unintended consequences, I like that book because they say,

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you know, it can be up to 65% over on average, but in some cases,

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I think they had said 1880%.

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That's 1880% over what they had originally budgeted.

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And I'm like, I don't know, 1880 is such a large number.

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I don't even have the skills to mention it in a percentage quickly.

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Like, we always talk about 120, 200, 300.

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Well, I've never gone above 1000 on a percentage. And so to your point,

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those unintended consequences, it will I, oh, this is actually kind of,

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I'm fortunate. I don't know what to say, but there was a little YouTube video.

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I was in a doom scroll on a plane because I wasn't feeling well yesterday on the plane.

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And I saw a video with a circle where the balls, there was two balls.

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And as soon as they hit each other, they would make another one. Right.

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And then they kept going. And then the circle like jam packed because of this ripple effect.

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And when you start that productivity spiral, because of those things,

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it's just, it becomes exponential.

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Just like the communication, What is the complexity of communication for team sizes?

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And I think that's important to realize that as soon as a superintendent does

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this to the point where it's actually going to compound, it could be exponential

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and very, very dangerous for the project.

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And then I don't know that we have proper anchors for how bad it can get.

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The other thing I hope everybody, I don't know if I'm batching too much information

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here but the other thing I hope everybody got was when you said about quality

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the other day I was working with a project team talking to them about,

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their field engineering program and their self-perform work and they're

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like Jason we need help making sure that our

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self-perform is perfect like we work for an owner that will not tolerate one

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mistake now we all know that that's unrealistic when you know concrete cracks

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and we pay taxes like those are the two two certainties in life right but but

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when in the past i would do field engineer training,

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and that that's it like oh if we do better lift drawings we'll have a better

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quality product or if i we train the field engineers better for layout we'll

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have better quality product but i was wrong we have to train the field engineers and the foreman.

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And the workers to your point to pair together and to

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work within a quality system like w edwards deming says to work within the system

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to create a create a quality product and before that to your point the schedule

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has got to enable them to work in one piece one process flow which is another

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really really huge thing that i learned from scrum is that really narrow in progress column,

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you're not the and and i was talking to the project team

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i was like guys your crews will not they

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will be incentivized by going they

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will think that they will try to go fast to

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incentivize because they're being incentivized to meet production what

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they need to do is work in one process flow and plan build

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and finish while they're there and that's only going to happen

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within a system and I you you pointed me

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I heard you arguing with I can't remember but anyway I've been reading a lot

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of Deming lately and I love that he says quality is not cannot not pin quality

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on the worker it's your job right and i told them that i said we have got to

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create a system where from a scheduling standpoint the integration with the foreman the huddles.

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Like you said getting the people together and making sure that the field engineers

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are there in support that they can actually work in one process flow and so

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when people think about quality it's not a oh i would go fast but i've got to

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go do this boring quality thing no you want to to go fast do it quality like

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felipe's talking about so those are two really important concepts,

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yeah you got to zoom back and we're always it's jake harrell we always get into

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debates on deming and even to this day he still baits me on linkedin every now

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and then but jake is a good friend of mine and.

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I know that uh deming has influenced him you you have to be influenced by someone

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even if you dislike them so take that jake you're super well what is what is

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the contention with deming if you had to guess if you know with him it's just

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he says that people blindly over rely on someone.

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And it's like i'm not over relying and even i had another friend that said the

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same thing about lean that you know we'll get too crazy about lean and we've

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got a i consider bob ameliani a friend he's He's written just enormous,

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I think he's actually probably written as many books as you have, Jason.

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He's written more, like four times as many. By the way, he'll be,

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I get to interview him this afternoon.

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Oh my God, yeah. Yeah. Congratulations. Small world. Dr. Bob.

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You can tell him Felipe said, hi, Dr. Bob. I will.

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Yeah. I will. I think I remember, so Hal Maycomber said, I need to go talk to

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Bob and read Goldratt's Principles of Flow.

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Don't tell how but i read the principles

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of flow before and it was it was a little

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bit dry so i didn't steal too much from it but the so i'm going to go back and

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read that and learn as much as i can from bob i think bob did a couple of counterpoints

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on some linkedin posts but i never blocked him so you'd be proud of him look

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it's paying off and i was going to be a a content i I mean,

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he's a massive content provider on LinkedIn content, but I think,

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you know, people are not wrong to say we should not get over reliant on one

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or two thinkers in any given space.

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And, and, but I, I consider Deming even today, one of my mentors, I never met him.

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He was by the time I even realized he existed, he'd already passed away in the nineties.

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And so all I have are the books, right? Just like you do.

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We just have the books and they've been very influential on me. a lot

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of the stuff that he wrote about is still true even now especially i

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think he's he was very critical of western management style

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and you know when i say western management style a

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lot of the listeners might not even know what i'm referring to and that's okay

398
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you just check out that one of deming's books i'd say

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the first good deming book to start with is the new economics okay good first

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start and i jason held up out of the crisis that's a little thicker one that's

401
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like more advanced deming reading but i'd say start with the new economics there's

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a lot of nuggets in there there that talk about things like even just as basic

403
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as in the work that we do, no matter what kind of job you have,

404
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psychology is a big part of our work.

405
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I think a lot of people undervalue that. And even in your book,

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Jason, in the Art of the Lean Builder Tack Planning, book one.

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You have this big disclaimer in the beginning of the book about who this book is for.

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And then this book is to prevent people from becoming abusive with tax planning.

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And I love that you put that in there. Like that was a surprise.

410
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Like I'm turning the pages and I saw that in the book and I thought,

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man, how, how thoughtful of you to put that warning in the book?

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Because people do, especially in Western management where it's not people are evil,

413
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but there's things in the system that incentivize

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people to behave in evil ways and to take advantage

415
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of people even at the sacrifice of humanity yeah people

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trying to do the work and i think you and i have both been

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to many projects where the value for people respect for people is really low

418
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and i'm always amazed that people still show up to work every day without treated

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quality is really on management you can't just go because i went through the

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list like Like setting clear expectations, communicating expectations.

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Incentivizing on the job site, the quality control program, the ability to stop

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and get it right from the beginning.

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I went going through the list on one of the YouTube videos that I just recorded.

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It's like the workers and foremen aren't in control of any of these.

425
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Like that's such an interesting concept to me.

426
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The other thing is, Kate, and

427
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I think I am too, but I just don't get very much time. That sounds bad.

428
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I don't take very much time to listen to Simon Sinek, but Kate is a huge Simon Sinek fan.

429
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And I was like, what's his main message? And she said his message is to reverse

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the teaching, all of the teachings of Milton Friedman.

431
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And I was a little thrown by that because back in the day, I was a huge Milton

432
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Friedman fan when it comes to like capitalism and socialism and economics and things like that.

433
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But there's one thing that Milton Friedman said was the purpose of the business to make money.

434
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Simon's next. And it sounds like Deming,

435
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said the purpose of a business if you're playing the infinite game is to.

436
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Benefit humanity and I really like that clarification because to your point

437
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and this is actually a really good cue because on the podcast I've been taught

438
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the the books the triumph of,

439
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classical management over lean management straight talk how Google works Deming

440
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they all say the same thing when you get people in their ivory castle muscle,

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disconnected from the work, they have the money and the levers and the decision-making,

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but these are the people that know what needs to be done.

443
00:28:30,734 --> 00:28:34,734
When you separate that, that's classical Western management, right?

444
00:28:34,894 --> 00:28:38,274
And you're making decisions and solving problems that don't exist.

445
00:28:38,474 --> 00:28:43,654
And so I think that's really well queued up for anybody that is at least listening

446
00:28:43,654 --> 00:28:45,914
on my end. And I think it's great.

447
00:28:46,874 --> 00:28:51,414
One of the things that I wanted to say, and so I hope I'm I'm doing these one

448
00:28:51,414 --> 00:28:55,894
at a time and not batching too much, but there's a lot of lean influencers that

449
00:28:55,894 --> 00:28:59,634
get mad at each other for different things.

450
00:28:59,834 --> 00:29:04,954
And I thought like when, so Jake has a point, don't over rely on somebody.

451
00:29:05,014 --> 00:29:09,354
But in my opinion, we're doing exactly what those influencers or those authors

452
00:29:09,354 --> 00:29:11,254
or those experts were wanting us to do, right?

453
00:29:11,354 --> 00:29:15,834
If we take Nicholas Modig's work and and Jeffrey K.

454
00:29:15,914 --> 00:29:19,354
Liker's work, which I know Bob has a problem with, Bob's work,

455
00:29:19,494 --> 00:29:25,754
and all these people, Deming, we're taking it and implementing it.

456
00:29:25,874 --> 00:29:29,254
And sometimes I see, and I'm not complaining, I'm not mad about this at all,

457
00:29:29,274 --> 00:29:33,954
but sometimes I see it's like, no, we're not sticking true to the original text,

458
00:29:34,074 --> 00:29:35,934
or you're sticking too much to the original text.

459
00:29:36,014 --> 00:29:40,294
It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. we are implementing in

460
00:29:40,294 --> 00:29:43,494
the field with results and social media in

461
00:29:43,494 --> 00:29:48,894
the results of these systems and applying it so with the thought that comes

462
00:29:48,894 --> 00:29:52,934
to me in my opinion I love your perspective I think we're doing exactly maybe

463
00:29:52,934 --> 00:29:57,674
I'm wrong maybe they wanted us to follow it exactly but I was under the impression

464
00:29:57,674 --> 00:30:01,394
that we were doing exactly what they wanted us to do with this is to implement

465
00:30:01,394 --> 00:30:03,274
Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong.

466
00:30:03,554 --> 00:30:07,574
I think Deming famously said that you've got to, I mean, he talked about things

467
00:30:07,574 --> 00:30:11,854
from a theoretical perspective and a lot of people misunderstood theory and

468
00:30:11,854 --> 00:30:14,034
people forget, like he was trained as a physicist.

469
00:30:14,454 --> 00:30:19,514
So he was a scientist first and then he became somehow, I don't know the sequence

470
00:30:19,514 --> 00:30:23,294
of events that led him to becoming a management consultant, but he was a scientist

471
00:30:23,294 --> 00:30:25,214
first and everything was based on experiments.

472
00:30:25,494 --> 00:30:28,794
Like you do something, you observe what happens, then you adjust your course

473
00:30:28,794 --> 00:30:33,034
and then you experiment your way to understand because you're dealing in complex systems.

474
00:30:33,214 --> 00:30:37,434
The language for complexity came later with some of the work by Dave Snowden

475
00:30:37,434 --> 00:30:41,774
who wrote the Kenevan theory, which is C-Y-N-E-V-E.

476
00:30:42,272 --> 00:30:44,932
Can e-f-i-n that's how you

477
00:30:44,932 --> 00:30:48,832
spell it's a welsh word and so like the whole point of that is that if you're

478
00:30:48,832 --> 00:30:52,072
in a system that's not simple this is where cause and effect are not easy to

479
00:30:52,072 --> 00:30:56,712
ascertain yeah you've got to experiment to see what happens and then study your

480
00:30:56,712 --> 00:30:59,952
experiment to see like do i want this again do i want more of this you've got

481
00:30:59,952 --> 00:31:02,372
experiment deming was definitely pro experimentation.

482
00:31:03,132 --> 00:31:08,852
Get get dirty with the tools lycra was trying to understand at a deeper level

483
00:31:08,852 --> 00:31:11,392
what was happening at Toyota. And Dr.

484
00:31:11,752 --> 00:31:15,912
Bob, he just wrote this on LinkedIn. I saw it this morning when I woke up,

485
00:31:15,932 --> 00:31:21,072
he had a post that was going viral on one of his posts talking about there've

486
00:31:21,072 --> 00:31:23,552
been no Toyotas for over 35 years.

487
00:31:23,792 --> 00:31:29,532
He said there are no new Toyotas. So no companies with the system that performs

488
00:31:29,532 --> 00:31:35,372
at the level of Toyota have come into existence now in the last 35 years.

489
00:31:35,512 --> 00:31:40,452
And he's He's right. I don't see any companies coming to the marketplace at

490
00:31:40,452 --> 00:31:43,752
a level of Toyota sophistication.

491
00:31:43,832 --> 00:31:47,652
But at the same time, when Taiichi Ono invented the Toyota production system,

492
00:31:47,912 --> 00:31:49,512
it was hated for a long time.

493
00:31:49,632 --> 00:31:53,332
And it took him 25 years to implement it at the assembly plant.

494
00:31:53,472 --> 00:31:57,852
He started off in the second tier suppliers, first and second tier suppliers.

495
00:31:58,132 --> 00:32:02,492
And then they moved him into the main manufacturing plants. And then over decades.

496
00:32:03,252 --> 00:32:07,232
He got the system implemented to what Lycra was studying now.

497
00:32:07,412 --> 00:32:13,812
So what Lycra studied took an entire lifetime of somebody to implement and get stable.

498
00:32:14,472 --> 00:32:18,092
And people don't recognize that. They think it just happens.

499
00:32:18,232 --> 00:32:20,812
And there's people always crapping on the lean tools.

500
00:32:21,472 --> 00:32:28,332
Even Bob, in his post this morning, he said, people will come to the lean tools, use the tools.

501
00:32:28,412 --> 00:32:31,092
And then if the tools don't work, people are like, well, lean doesn't work.

502
00:32:31,612 --> 00:32:36,632
Right and he makes a really good argument for why with when you take a systems

503
00:32:36,632 --> 00:32:40,832
purview like it's not going to work like i was training somebody let me bring

504
00:32:40,832 --> 00:32:44,032
this concept to life just just so beautifully,

505
00:32:44,532 --> 00:32:51,292
i have a friend that i've known for 10 years finally came to one of my scrum

506
00:32:51,292 --> 00:32:55,692
trainings and this person always would say things that i knew they had a different

507
00:32:55,692 --> 00:33:00,072
belief about batches and And I'm going to focus this on just batches just to prove this point.

508
00:33:00,432 --> 00:33:05,572
So in Lean, we learn, or as some of our friends on LinkedIn will tell us,

509
00:33:05,592 --> 00:33:10,572
in industrial engineering, we learned that batch sizing plays a huge factor

510
00:33:10,572 --> 00:33:12,172
in your throughput of your system.

511
00:33:12,412 --> 00:33:15,552
The bigger the batch, the longer it's going to take you to do it.

512
00:33:15,712 --> 00:33:19,152
The smaller the batch, the faster you can flow through your system,

513
00:33:19,212 --> 00:33:22,352
the faster you can deliver what the client wants when they want it.

514
00:33:22,452 --> 00:33:26,652
So there's a right sizing to batching. And in your book, you talk about Little's

515
00:33:26,652 --> 00:33:31,072
Law, and you said one of the main ideas of Little's Law is making smaller batch

516
00:33:31,072 --> 00:33:33,792
sizes or right-sizing the batches. Totally agree.

517
00:33:34,092 --> 00:33:38,312
And you can't argue the science, and you can even get mathematical on it to show.

518
00:33:39,085 --> 00:33:42,385
Now, this person, their belief was bigger is better.

519
00:33:42,745 --> 00:33:47,565
Super common American beliefs. Just go to any restaurant and you can see small,

520
00:33:47,805 --> 00:33:53,265
medium, large, extra large, supersized me, examples all over. It's everywhere you go.

521
00:33:53,425 --> 00:33:58,525
Economy size, economies of scale. This is like the whole business model for

522
00:33:58,525 --> 00:34:03,065
Costco and Sam's Club and these big box stores that sell these huge bulk items.

523
00:34:03,185 --> 00:34:04,305
They tell you it's cheaper.

524
00:34:04,505 --> 00:34:09,425
Buy in bulk. It's cheaper. And so we're conditioned as consumers in the United

525
00:34:09,425 --> 00:34:11,185
States to always think bigger is better.

526
00:34:11,285 --> 00:34:13,885
And the more I have of something, the better it is, the cheaper it is.

527
00:34:14,205 --> 00:34:17,425
And that's true, but you don't actually need all that stuff.

528
00:34:17,625 --> 00:34:22,285
And then you have to deal with like, now I've got closets full of like big bulky

529
00:34:22,285 --> 00:34:26,645
stuff that I can't hang my coat up in the wintertime because I got toilet paper

530
00:34:26,645 --> 00:34:31,105
and paper towels, like, you know, to the ceiling and I'm exaggerating how many paper towels.

531
00:34:31,785 --> 00:34:35,505
I'm not that messy. We use cloth towels sometimes.

532
00:34:36,905 --> 00:34:39,885
But my point is like you have to deal with the inventory of

533
00:34:39,885 --> 00:34:42,765
having these huge batches like as a family of three

534
00:34:42,765 --> 00:34:45,505
do i need to have 24 rolls of toilet

535
00:34:45,505 --> 00:34:48,945
paper like what's going to happen in a five-day week and

536
00:34:48,945 --> 00:34:53,045
it's not like we live out in the woods jason like i live in the suburbs i can

537
00:34:53,045 --> 00:34:57,245
go to a gas station if i need to and buy toilet paper from a gas station if

538
00:34:57,245 --> 00:35:01,465
it gets that dire right but we're buying these huge jumbo rolls because the

539
00:35:01,465 --> 00:35:06,445
price per sheet is so low because we're buying these massive quantities,

540
00:35:06,625 --> 00:35:09,305
but we don't take into account, like I've got to haul it.

541
00:35:09,405 --> 00:35:13,425
I've got to store it. I've got to handle it. There's all these extra things I have to do.

542
00:35:13,685 --> 00:35:18,905
So I'm trading back off the savings in my labor, you know, versus being efficient,

543
00:35:19,005 --> 00:35:20,785
just buying just enough at the right amount.

544
00:35:21,005 --> 00:35:25,065
So I have a steady, steady amount for what I need on a, if I'm shopping,

545
00:35:25,125 --> 00:35:29,485
if my cycle of shopping is every five days or every six days,

546
00:35:29,525 --> 00:35:31,665
if I'm doing it on Saturdays, it's typically what I do.

547
00:35:32,125 --> 00:35:34,785
I only need six days supply. supply why am I

548
00:35:34,785 --> 00:35:39,205
buying a one month supply right so like this superintendent to bring it back

549
00:35:39,205 --> 00:35:44,445
my friend he's uh he's thinking was bigger is better bring it all to the site

550
00:35:44,445 --> 00:35:47,665
and so he's working on this project and he's like I want to bring everything

551
00:35:47,665 --> 00:35:52,005
to the site and I said before you bring everything to the site for an ex there's

552
00:35:52,005 --> 00:35:54,065
an exterior sequence of work they're going to do I.

553
00:35:54,938 --> 00:35:57,838
How are you going to store it? How are you going to handle it?

554
00:35:57,918 --> 00:35:59,198
You're going to, you're going to break.

555
00:35:59,438 --> 00:36:03,198
You're going to, you're going to dip into your addict stock of the stuff because

556
00:36:03,198 --> 00:36:04,278
things are going to get damaged.

557
00:36:04,338 --> 00:36:07,558
You're going to handle things twice or more than twice.

558
00:36:07,678 --> 00:36:12,738
I've never seen people take big batches of deliveries and not handle it three

559
00:36:12,738 --> 00:36:15,278
times minimum. I think I end up handling it.

560
00:36:15,618 --> 00:36:19,558
And I said, you know, who's paying for all that? You are you to run it,

561
00:36:19,598 --> 00:36:22,258
to manage it just so you can feel like a

562
00:36:22,258 --> 00:36:25,178
little security blanket it like oh it's here i

563
00:36:25,178 --> 00:36:28,278
feel better no it's here now you got to protect it you got

564
00:36:28,278 --> 00:36:31,138
to account it you have to account for it and then you what

565
00:36:31,138 --> 00:36:33,938
are you going to do when you start dipping into your x-back you're just going

566
00:36:33,938 --> 00:36:37,138
to tell the owner like we'll get you some later in the future now

567
00:36:37,138 --> 00:36:40,058
you're making your management team manage that and

568
00:36:40,058 --> 00:36:43,118
he still said i know he's like

569
00:36:43,118 --> 00:36:46,518
i'm doing it i'm bringing i'd rather have it here than not

570
00:36:46,518 --> 00:36:49,318
have it here and so he brought it and all the

571
00:36:49,318 --> 00:36:52,298
things that said what happened happened they had to create an inventory

572
00:36:52,298 --> 00:36:55,898
they had to handle it more than three times it reduced

573
00:36:55,898 --> 00:36:58,518
the profit for that subcontractor so i mean

574
00:36:58,518 --> 00:37:01,498
fast forward now he's coming to one of my scrum courses

575
00:37:01,498 --> 00:37:04,998
we get to the slide where jason's talking about where we teach batch

576
00:37:04,998 --> 00:37:07,938
sizes and there's diminishing returns when you get

577
00:37:07,938 --> 00:37:10,778
to a certain team level because even people can batch

578
00:37:10,778 --> 00:37:13,858
too you get to a certain number of people you spend more

579
00:37:13,858 --> 00:37:16,958
money but you get nothing in return return for the extras owned

580
00:37:16,958 --> 00:37:19,898
nothing then it happens I think somewhere between.

581
00:37:19,898 --> 00:37:22,638
10 to 17 people somewhere in

582
00:37:22,638 --> 00:37:26,038
between 10 to 17 people they show in studies that

583
00:37:26,038 --> 00:37:29,238
you get no return for the extra people yeah so

584
00:37:29,238 --> 00:37:32,058
you've got to change how you how you get the people together

585
00:37:32,058 --> 00:37:35,238
like Jason said there's onboarding you know socialization

586
00:37:35,238 --> 00:37:38,318
they call it the social debt uh culture

587
00:37:38,318 --> 00:37:41,198
norms all these things factor and so we're on the slide

588
00:37:41,198 --> 00:37:44,998
i'm watching i'm watching my friend jason no change

589
00:37:44,998 --> 00:37:48,018
no change crashing against his belief that

590
00:37:48,018 --> 00:37:51,058
more is better if i had more people i could

591
00:37:51,058 --> 00:37:54,218
do more stuff but there's a limit like we said there's

592
00:37:54,218 --> 00:37:57,018
a limit of space time context of what people can

593
00:37:57,018 --> 00:38:00,378
actually physically be engaged in you know

594
00:38:00,378 --> 00:38:03,258
in scrum we have this pattern of swarming where you can bring the whole team

595
00:38:03,258 --> 00:38:06,038
together and go after a problem just like bees

596
00:38:06,038 --> 00:38:08,858
do on an invader to the hive to protect

597
00:38:08,858 --> 00:38:11,798
the queen the same with tasks but there's a

598
00:38:11,798 --> 00:38:15,178
limit to how many people can physically be on something yeah and

599
00:38:15,178 --> 00:38:18,438
it's it's work dependent it's task dependent so i told

600
00:38:18,438 --> 00:38:22,178
my friend like i recognize this happening i said hey this

601
00:38:22,178 --> 00:38:26,658
is that thing that i was talking about here's the the data and the science and

602
00:38:26,658 --> 00:38:31,518
as i know the numbers will not compel you to change your mind i said you need

603
00:38:31,518 --> 00:38:36,078
to do an experiment a small experiment and just test this for yourself and then

604
00:38:36,078 --> 00:38:39,418
we play this game where we we batch with numbers.

605
00:38:39,718 --> 00:38:44,858
We create like three columns of stuff and we like this batch and then we do

606
00:38:44,858 --> 00:38:49,058
one piece flow and the one piece flow is always twice as fast.

607
00:38:50,006 --> 00:38:52,886
And even then, the person's like, nah, it's just because of the game.

608
00:38:53,026 --> 00:38:55,946
I mean, that's how strong these beliefs are that people have.

609
00:38:56,206 --> 00:39:00,226
And so Jason and I are saying, you need to have the experience yourself.

610
00:39:00,386 --> 00:39:03,546
And us doing this on the podcast and explaining this to you,

611
00:39:03,646 --> 00:39:08,286
it's not going to make you change your mind to experience it firsthand.

612
00:39:10,086 --> 00:39:14,506
If you're on a construction project and you've never implemented lean or you

613
00:39:14,506 --> 00:39:19,706
can't recognize lean stuff happening, you're likely on a job that has large batches.

614
00:39:20,006 --> 00:39:22,866
Yeah just check your here you want to see if you're on a traditional

615
00:39:22,866 --> 00:39:25,666
project people listening to the show go to

616
00:39:25,666 --> 00:39:28,726
your last two schedule updates and look find

617
00:39:28,726 --> 00:39:32,186
a milestone in the schedule that was in the next six weeks and

618
00:39:32,186 --> 00:39:34,926
if you see that milestone in the second update move to

619
00:39:34,926 --> 00:39:37,526
the right taking longer yeah congratulations you're in a

620
00:39:37,526 --> 00:39:40,746
traditional schedule yeah exactly you're

621
00:39:40,746 --> 00:39:43,546
you've got your batches are too big so like jason and

622
00:39:43,546 --> 00:39:46,446
i we look like ninjas are like magicians coming

623
00:39:46,446 --> 00:39:49,226
into your projects to create flow what we do is

624
00:39:49,226 --> 00:39:52,526
we reduce batch sizes increases throughput

625
00:39:52,526 --> 00:39:55,546
we gain schedule time and then

626
00:39:55,546 --> 00:39:59,246
people are all like oh my god lean is so magical like it's

627
00:39:59,246 --> 00:40:02,786
really basic principles that we're applying these patterns and

628
00:40:02,786 --> 00:40:05,826
it's it's quite easy because 99.9 of

629
00:40:05,826 --> 00:40:09,106
all construction projects are big batching because everything in

630
00:40:09,106 --> 00:40:11,866
your everyday environment says bigger is

631
00:40:11,866 --> 00:40:14,646
better like you know if small microphones are good

632
00:40:14,646 --> 00:40:17,986
why not get a bigger microphone right yeah yeah or

633
00:40:17,986 --> 00:40:21,326
and it the same thing happens with cranes too everything bigger is better but

634
00:40:21,326 --> 00:40:26,986
yeah everybody wants the super giant crane we hear all the time the building

635
00:40:26,986 --> 00:40:30,986
enclosure is the number one problem in construction and when the task of the

636
00:40:30,986 --> 00:40:35,906
building enclosure is presented with so much pressure it's something most of us would want to avoid.

637
00:40:37,943 --> 00:40:42,443
Until now, there has never been a course to teach someone how to manage a building enclosure.

638
00:40:42,803 --> 00:40:46,503
Building enclosure is a problem for every company, and the solution is often

639
00:40:46,503 --> 00:40:52,023
to ask someone within to try to find training or provide training to their teams to avoid these issues.

640
00:40:52,463 --> 00:40:55,983
Field Verified's Enclosure Management course is the answer to that problem.

641
00:40:56,283 --> 00:41:00,143
We learned the hard way. We've learned through failure. We've learned from others.

642
00:41:00,803 --> 00:41:05,003
This course, our team, will help those people who are assigned to manage the

643
00:41:05,003 --> 00:41:08,463
building enclosure be successful the first time, so that they're spared some

644
00:41:08,463 --> 00:41:11,123
of the suffering and hardships that all of us went through.

645
00:41:11,423 --> 00:41:14,223
There's so much opportunity for a high return on investment,

646
00:41:14,483 --> 00:41:18,283
not just when an individual attends and all of the skills that they'll achieve,

647
00:41:18,443 --> 00:41:20,343
but when a team participates together,

648
00:41:20,563 --> 00:41:24,103
they can raise their level of performance by knowing what each other can do,

649
00:41:24,223 --> 00:41:27,583
what to expect, and they can raise the level of performance of that company

650
00:41:27,583 --> 00:41:31,023
as their careers excel and the company elevates along with them.

651
00:41:31,583 --> 00:41:35,383
The training is built on the science of how people learn. We capture all of

652
00:41:35,383 --> 00:41:37,723
the components that are necessary to master a skill.

653
00:41:37,903 --> 00:41:41,203
There's a hands-on component to the training where we're building a masonry

654
00:41:41,203 --> 00:41:45,583
mock-up, a metal panel mock-up, we're doing EFIS, and even installing a window

655
00:41:45,583 --> 00:41:47,083
that later you get to test.

656
00:41:47,303 --> 00:41:50,863
The hands-on training gives us the opportunity to translate the lines on paper

657
00:41:50,863 --> 00:41:52,483
to actual construction in the field.

658
00:41:52,983 --> 00:41:56,083
We always laugh because after the training people come up and say,

659
00:41:56,243 --> 00:41:58,023
you know, this isn't just about building enclosure.

660
00:41:58,363 --> 00:42:00,743
There's a lot of leadership in here. There are a lot of people skills.

661
00:42:00,963 --> 00:42:05,523
That's because those skills are necessary to be successful in building enclosure and in construction.

662
00:42:05,963 --> 00:42:09,563
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663
00:42:09,803 --> 00:42:13,823
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664
00:42:13,823 --> 00:42:18,183
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665
00:42:18,263 --> 00:42:21,923
And we've created an online training that's available for people who might not

666
00:42:21,923 --> 00:42:25,203
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667
00:42:25,343 --> 00:42:28,563
We're going to start by understanding what what problems you're currently experiencing,

668
00:42:28,763 --> 00:42:32,503
and develop a specific program that's right for the needs of your company.

669
00:42:34,459 --> 00:42:40,139
Yeah. For no reason. So that one, one job I did, and the concrete company suggested

670
00:42:40,139 --> 00:42:41,559
this, it wasn't my idea, but he

671
00:42:41,559 --> 00:42:45,299
said, we can bring out two smaller tower cranes and save a lot of money.

672
00:42:45,359 --> 00:42:52,119
We saved $360,000 by going to two smaller cranes and our productivity was amazing.

673
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:58,739
You know, one of the things that you mentioned, they, in their world, they may be right.

674
00:42:58,959 --> 00:43:05,379
Like Your friend, if they're in a complex system where the owner is incentivizing

675
00:43:05,379 --> 00:43:06,979
bringing out all the material,

676
00:43:07,139 --> 00:43:11,339
and you said this, so I'm not adding anything that you didn't already say,

677
00:43:11,399 --> 00:43:15,239
but if the owner's like, yeah, I want it all here, and this is how we do things

678
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,979
on this campus, or when you work for us, or we don't want smaller batch sizes,

679
00:43:20,159 --> 00:43:24,239
or the contractors we typically work with have larger zones,

680
00:43:24,399 --> 00:43:25,459
we want you to do the same thing.

681
00:43:25,459 --> 00:43:30,719
And I don't know if the word socioeconomic is the right one for explaining this,

682
00:43:30,819 --> 00:43:37,359
but if your friend is always working in a complex system that incentivizes him to do that.

683
00:43:37,979 --> 00:43:40,759
He may be right isn't the right term.

684
00:43:40,759 --> 00:43:48,759
Meaning he may be right that he is incentivized to do that, but to your point,

685
00:43:48,839 --> 00:43:53,679
it's not right if the goal, which actually, oh my gosh, my mind blown.

686
00:43:53,899 --> 00:44:00,239
If the goal was to produce with, and you keep saying the shortest overall throughput

687
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:04,879
time, then you're right. Smaller bat sizes, right?

688
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:12,659
And I just realized that when we read books like The Fifth Discipline or Thinking

689
00:44:12,659 --> 00:44:18,359
in Systems, one of the key components or levers is the goal of the system, right?

690
00:44:18,499 --> 00:44:24,739
And you also mentioned classical management or Western classical management. The goal of the system is,

691
00:44:25,259 --> 00:44:33,099
is not to produce. The goal of the system is to, for each independent,

692
00:44:33,399 --> 00:44:37,579
for each separated, and you said this word as well, sub-optimized department

693
00:44:37,579 --> 00:44:39,979
to look as best as they can,

694
00:44:40,699 --> 00:44:45,719
in which case he may be being asked to bring out everything all at once.

695
00:44:46,299 --> 00:44:50,639
Okay, so what I'm going to do in the future, if I get a situation like that,

696
00:44:50,679 --> 00:44:57,019
what I'm learning is I can separate the truth of the goal of a production system,

697
00:44:57,259 --> 00:45:03,399
which goes back to TPS, but from what they may be incentivized with and really

698
00:45:03,399 --> 00:45:06,759
connect and be like, in your system, the goal of your system that you're in

699
00:45:06,759 --> 00:45:08,739
on your project, that may be correct. You are right.

700
00:45:09,359 --> 00:45:13,139
If you want to change the goal to producing and respecting people,

701
00:45:13,339 --> 00:45:15,139
then we will have to do smaller batch sizes.

702
00:45:15,359 --> 00:45:18,199
Do you think that would work, Felipe, or what do you think? I think that would

703
00:45:18,199 --> 00:45:21,219
work. And And, you know, if you're on the job, Jason, you're talking to him.

704
00:45:21,279 --> 00:45:23,139
You're like, yeah, we're going to do what Jason says.

705
00:45:24,839 --> 00:45:29,099
I've called that the Jason effect. I got to bring Jason to a job one time.

706
00:45:29,559 --> 00:45:33,919
And like Jason said, the exact same things that I said, almost word for word.

707
00:45:34,019 --> 00:45:35,799
But when Jason said it, Jason was right.

708
00:45:35,919 --> 00:45:38,239
And people were like, oh yeah, like Jason genius.

709
00:45:38,639 --> 00:45:41,759
And I was like, yes, he is. And I just, I just was there cheerleading you,

710
00:45:41,799 --> 00:45:47,139
Jason, because I wanted them to try something different and bringing you there definitely did.

711
00:45:47,139 --> 00:45:49,799
So you unlocked for a lot of people you have a good way of

712
00:45:49,799 --> 00:45:52,799
getting people to to try something different and i

713
00:45:52,799 --> 00:45:56,499
think we have the same talent but you know we're both together it's

714
00:45:56,499 --> 00:46:01,519
i call it the jason effect people jason says it's like getting people and you're

715
00:46:01,519 --> 00:46:05,679
totally right i forgot about the you know that's the good systems thinking that

716
00:46:05,679 --> 00:46:10,379
you said what is the and then i'm thinking of my friend now like now and you

717
00:46:10,379 --> 00:46:16,399
said it he has been incentivized to do this stuff because that's getting rewarded.

718
00:46:16,659 --> 00:46:20,179
It makes the owner happy because the owner's used to the same thing.

719
00:46:20,279 --> 00:46:23,259
They're all used to the same type of thing. And on that campus,

720
00:46:23,339 --> 00:46:25,819
they did this over and over and over again. Yeah, yes.

721
00:46:26,279 --> 00:46:29,279
And so it's getting reinforced, rewarded, and it's positive.

722
00:46:30,019 --> 00:46:34,219
And, you know, people laugh and we've gotten into fights, not you and I, but with other people.

723
00:46:34,779 --> 00:46:38,099
And I've said this and people always like, that's not true. Here's the thing I'm going to say.

724
00:46:38,199 --> 00:46:43,439
People always say, sometimes projects don't want to finish early or on time.

725
00:46:44,119 --> 00:46:47,759
And everyone always tries to say schedule is so important, but it's not true.

726
00:46:48,299 --> 00:46:51,779
It's not true. Their schedule is really important. It doesn't match the behaviors

727
00:46:51,779 --> 00:46:54,079
that people take. Yeah, exactly.

728
00:46:54,579 --> 00:46:58,799
Right. There's so many projects we go to, Jason, where people tell you everything

729
00:46:58,799 --> 00:47:01,379
they say is that schedule is the most important thing.

730
00:47:02,039 --> 00:47:04,879
Production is the most important thing. But then you walk their job and you're

731
00:47:04,879 --> 00:47:07,119
like, there's no way it's the most important thing. Yes.

732
00:47:07,339 --> 00:47:10,459
They're doing things on purpose. They don't know it, but they're doing things

733
00:47:10,459 --> 00:47:12,279
on purpose to slow production down.

734
00:47:12,599 --> 00:47:15,679
Yes. less quality to make it dangerous environment

735
00:47:15,679 --> 00:47:18,779
and it's not the most important thing there's other things

736
00:47:18,779 --> 00:47:21,439
that are important and like western management i'm gonna

737
00:47:21,439 --> 00:47:24,699
think i think we're nailing something now and you can ask bob i think

738
00:47:24,699 --> 00:47:28,119
one of the main functions of western management is to

739
00:47:28,119 --> 00:47:31,999
keep people busy all the time yes yes that's

740
00:47:31,999 --> 00:47:35,759
exactly it i was thinking the exact same thing when you so very

741
00:47:35,759 --> 00:47:39,779
few hit on the point that you just hit it's when

742
00:47:39,779 --> 00:47:42,619
so you're right it's not the goal it's not the goal the goal

743
00:47:42,619 --> 00:47:46,419
was to show that you.

744
00:47:46,419 --> 00:47:49,359
Can implement as much as you possibly can from

745
00:47:49,359 --> 00:47:52,899
your pmp certification be busy

746
00:47:52,899 --> 00:47:55,799
and show the owner that you care

747
00:47:55,799 --> 00:47:58,759
through busyness yeah that's

748
00:47:58,759 --> 00:48:01,959
it that's it and the i when

749
00:48:01,959 --> 00:48:04,879
you were talking earlier i was like why and this sounds really arrogant

750
00:48:04,879 --> 00:48:08,579
i mean it like this but why have i jason schroeder

751
00:48:08,579 --> 00:48:12,059
been so successful on projects as

752
00:48:12,059 --> 00:48:15,499
a superintendent and you as well so i'm just talking about my experience but

753
00:48:15,499 --> 00:48:18,859
if you think about it all of the system components were there i got

754
00:48:18,859 --> 00:48:21,779
i had experience i had the training a staff

755
00:48:21,779 --> 00:48:24,619
that i knew from the book how big things get done i

756
00:48:24,619 --> 00:48:27,619
had there was five people that i had worked with before and trained that were

757
00:48:27,619 --> 00:48:34,579
loyal to me an owner that was supportive of lean systems a work force and trade

758
00:48:34,579 --> 00:48:39,959
partners that were committed through contracts and relationships to the project

759
00:48:39,959 --> 00:48:42,979
itself and all other supportive elements.

760
00:48:43,319 --> 00:48:47,699
And so when I go implement, I had all those things, right?

761
00:48:47,819 --> 00:48:55,359
And I do understand and I'm getting more mature into the project that I just

762
00:48:55,359 --> 00:48:58,099
visited the other day during my Christmas break.

763
00:48:58,519 --> 00:49:01,599
I went there and they had everything. They had the trailer,

764
00:49:01,599 --> 00:49:04,319
they had the team they had the experience they had the background they knew

765
00:49:04,319 --> 00:49:08,179
their plan they had the best self-performer but the owner

766
00:49:08,179 --> 00:49:11,439
dictated you will do cpm

767
00:49:11,439 --> 00:49:14,239
by the book you will not try and

768
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:18,219
optimize your zoning and it's like well okay well what do you guys want from

769
00:49:18,219 --> 00:49:23,259
me like i i flew out here like i you're you're not gonna you're not gonna go

770
00:49:23,259 --> 00:49:27,159
any faster and it's funny felipe they said the exact same thing that you said

771
00:49:27,159 --> 00:49:32,779
which is really funny they said we've done multiple multiple projects like this and we track them,

772
00:49:33,279 --> 00:49:36,079
this is our template plan, boom, let's shove it in your face.

773
00:49:36,619 --> 00:49:40,439
And I can't help but feel that.

774
00:49:42,031 --> 00:49:46,031
And i may be wrong but when i read the deming and

775
00:49:46,031 --> 00:49:48,771
i'm not through all of it and i probably don't even understand most of it

776
00:49:48,771 --> 00:49:51,651
because i'm not on on other people's or your level but

777
00:49:51,651 --> 00:49:57,871
i can't help but feel that what they did in japan was to change the socioeconomic

778
00:49:57,871 --> 00:50:03,571
conditions and realize that they were in a crisis that's the title of the book

779
00:50:03,571 --> 00:50:08,851
obviously and were intrinsically motivated to to work together, network,

780
00:50:09,251 --> 00:50:12,551
and really do this right.

781
00:50:12,731 --> 00:50:17,491
And I love what you just said, even then, it took him 25 years.

782
00:50:19,191 --> 00:50:22,711
And so, very sympathetic.

783
00:50:23,611 --> 00:50:26,851
In fact, Kate the other day was like, and I don't know if we're gonna do this

784
00:50:26,851 --> 00:50:29,791
or not, so nobody freak out, but we get asked to do a lot of training.

785
00:50:29,911 --> 00:50:33,871
I probably just did 30 training proposals over the last couple weeks. weeks.

786
00:50:34,151 --> 00:50:38,311
And Kate was like, I'm, we're not going to do training for anyone who doesn't

787
00:50:38,311 --> 00:50:40,291
automatically do tech loss planner and scrum.

788
00:50:40,891 --> 00:50:44,651
It's just not a thing. And she was, she's the CEO. So it's her job to,

789
00:50:44,671 --> 00:50:48,911
you know, throw out the entrepreneurial radical ideas.

790
00:50:49,091 --> 00:50:52,611
Right. But she's like, because if we can go train you all you want,

791
00:50:52,751 --> 00:50:54,551
if you don't have the right systems,

792
00:50:54,651 --> 00:50:57,451
if you don't have the right buying leadership, we're wasting our time.

793
00:50:57,551 --> 00:51:00,191
And that's our brand too. That was her argument. it. And I was thinking like,

794
00:51:00,231 --> 00:51:01,811
that is really good point.

795
00:51:01,931 --> 00:51:06,231
Like, are you in or, and I know this sounds dictatorial and I talked to Jen

796
00:51:06,231 --> 00:51:09,711
just the other day, I need to get better with this, but like, the, like, are you in?

797
00:51:09,831 --> 00:51:13,111
Because if you're in to your point, it's not just the tools.

798
00:51:13,171 --> 00:51:16,171
It's not just the training. We have to change the overall system.

799
00:51:16,911 --> 00:51:23,211
And I know that was a lot of concepts there, but I, I really feel like if I

800
00:51:23,211 --> 00:51:26,971
look back, listening to some of the things that you were We were saying I was successful with Lean.

801
00:51:27,031 --> 00:51:28,491
You were successful with Lean

802
00:51:28,491 --> 00:51:33,511
because we had all supportive systems within the complex system itself.

803
00:51:34,451 --> 00:51:37,971
What do you think of that? I completely agree. And even thinking of some of

804
00:51:37,971 --> 00:51:42,251
the times where things missing, like I've had feedback from project teams say,

805
00:51:42,411 --> 00:51:44,671
well, you can get results that we can't get.

806
00:51:45,011 --> 00:51:48,571
And like, what's the difference? Like, well, some of the difference is my attitude.

807
00:51:48,911 --> 00:51:53,811
So like with the workers, like my attitude towards the frontline workers is totally different.

808
00:51:54,051 --> 00:51:58,331
And when I say the workers, I'm even talking about design professionals as well,

809
00:51:58,491 --> 00:51:59,671
engineers and architects.

810
00:51:59,891 --> 00:52:03,551
The way that I talk to, it's kind of funny. Like if you put a camera on my shoulder,

811
00:52:03,671 --> 00:52:07,171
Jason, and you filmed how I talked to architects and engineers and how I talked

812
00:52:07,171 --> 00:52:10,751
to trade people, identically the same, except trades people.

813
00:52:10,811 --> 00:52:14,871
It's a little bit more foul language, just a little bit, not much more.

814
00:52:15,411 --> 00:52:21,131
But I think like my, my, I empathize with people that actually have to do the

815
00:52:21,131 --> 00:52:27,091
work and, and I tell them like the goal of what we're doing is not to make you busy 10 hours a day.

816
00:52:27,371 --> 00:52:30,751
Cause that doesn't, that's not helpful. Sometimes you need to do nothing.

817
00:52:31,551 --> 00:52:35,351
And I say, I'm not advocating for like nothing, but I'm advocating for like

818
00:52:35,351 --> 00:52:39,231
doing work that's needed, that's valuable, that people actually want,

819
00:52:39,331 --> 00:52:43,531
that's proud to what you want to do. And like, and you actually accomplish something.

820
00:52:44,131 --> 00:52:47,911
And so for like the workers, it's super easy. They buy in real fast because

821
00:52:47,911 --> 00:52:52,351
they're like, this guy's not going to waste my time because so many other people waste their time.

822
00:52:53,171 --> 00:52:57,031
Project teams, most of the time it's you, general contractors,

823
00:52:57,131 --> 00:52:59,111
wasting the trades time and money.

824
00:52:59,111 --> 00:53:01,871
And like they don't have infinite time and

825
00:53:01,871 --> 00:53:04,591
money to just be at your beck and call and do whatever you want

826
00:53:04,591 --> 00:53:07,871
so stop power tripping and start working with

827
00:53:07,871 --> 00:53:11,051
people to accomplish your goals you're going to have more power

828
00:53:11,051 --> 00:53:14,491
than you know what to do with because your results are going to be so incredible

829
00:53:14,491 --> 00:53:19,491
yes really easy to get good results when you prioritize people first and like

830
00:53:19,491 --> 00:53:22,751
jason you said it in your tech book like everything that happens through these

831
00:53:22,751 --> 00:53:27,611
systems it's people that make it happen so if you prioritize the people use

832
00:53:27,611 --> 00:53:30,131
processes to enable the goal.

833
00:53:31,030 --> 00:53:34,190
And like at some point you need to turn these buildings over so they can be

834
00:53:34,190 --> 00:53:37,210
used beneficially. Yeah. No one's going to fight you on that.

835
00:53:37,290 --> 00:53:38,770
There's no fighting on that. Yeah.

836
00:53:39,090 --> 00:53:43,690
Even clients that like seeing people busy, take the time to walk with the client

837
00:53:43,690 --> 00:53:46,330
through the site, educate them so they can see the difference.

838
00:53:46,670 --> 00:53:51,030
And you can go get some contrast, go see something that's traditional,

839
00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:54,770
go see something where they're starting to optimize using TAC,

840
00:53:54,850 --> 00:53:56,250
using Scrum, using last planner system.

841
00:53:56,530 --> 00:53:59,530
Those project sites look and feel totally different.

842
00:53:59,810 --> 00:54:02,510
Yes. there's tons of contrast and then

843
00:54:02,510 --> 00:54:05,710
you can implement those patterns are really easy to do and you

844
00:54:05,710 --> 00:54:08,550
can start to get some of those things to be more successful like

845
00:54:08,550 --> 00:54:11,330
everybody listening you only have so many

846
00:54:11,330 --> 00:54:14,510
hours in the day you only have so much energy to

847
00:54:14,510 --> 00:54:17,390
put into things so use it well

848
00:54:17,390 --> 00:54:21,230
so that you get more of what you want stop unnecessarily suffering

849
00:54:21,230 --> 00:54:23,990
i agree you know one

850
00:54:23,990 --> 00:54:27,410
of the things that's been on my mind like last night i was

851
00:54:27,410 --> 00:54:30,590
talking to kate and i heard micro rowe talk about and

852
00:54:30,590 --> 00:54:33,470
i don't know if these numbers are correct but i saw a little youtube clip of mike

853
00:54:33,470 --> 00:54:36,530
rowe saying in the united states there are four million

854
00:54:36,530 --> 00:54:42,390
which is a lot because i think we only have 380 to 420 million people right

855
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:49,690
in the united states but four million younger meaning like 18 to 30 i probably

856
00:54:49,690 --> 00:54:55,750
18 to 30 year old people who can work who do not have jobs.

857
00:54:56,732 --> 00:54:59,712
And are not looking for jobs and i was i

858
00:54:59,712 --> 00:55:02,452
was i was i was really so like when i when

859
00:55:02,452 --> 00:55:06,012
i look at the book out of crisis i'm like you know

860
00:55:06,012 --> 00:55:08,812
people talk about that that we're you know

861
00:55:08,812 --> 00:55:13,232
have we have a problem in our industry all industries in the united states and

862
00:55:13,232 --> 00:55:19,612
probably around the world maybe maybe no i'll say the united states are need

863
00:55:19,612 --> 00:55:23,412
to hire more people but can't hire more people and And I can't help but feel

864
00:55:23,412 --> 00:55:27,952
that the Japanese knew they were in crisis, but we don't.

865
00:55:28,772 --> 00:55:32,972
And I could be wrong. I'm just saying, like, if we think it's bad now,

866
00:55:33,192 --> 00:55:34,672
I think it's going to get much worse.

867
00:55:34,772 --> 00:55:37,552
And hell make our Mercedes hopeful, but I think it's going to get even worse.

868
00:55:38,032 --> 00:55:40,952
And Kate was talking to me about housing. Like, for our kids,

869
00:55:41,092 --> 00:55:43,172
well, I'm starting to use my kids as an example.

870
00:55:43,172 --> 00:55:46,952
And that we've got two kids at home that

871
00:55:46,952 --> 00:55:53,652
are 18 and 20 hard-working kids going to school but they have zero intention

872
00:55:53,652 --> 00:55:58,472
of leaving the house and Kate and I have zero intention of kicking them out

873
00:55:58,472 --> 00:56:01,872
now some people might be like well you're a bad parent and I would say yeah

874
00:56:01,872 --> 00:56:05,072
well what took you so long to figure that out, number one.

875
00:56:05,452 --> 00:56:10,472
But the bottom line is, at least in Phoenix,

876
00:56:10,712 --> 00:56:17,732
I can't think of a job that they could get while going to school where they

877
00:56:17,732 --> 00:56:20,932
could pay for or even find a house or pay for it.

878
00:56:21,172 --> 00:56:25,352
Because at least in our area, these houses

879
00:56:25,352 --> 00:56:28,772
have been bought for Airbnbs or there's

880
00:56:28,772 --> 00:56:32,012
a shortage now it's all centered in multifamily

881
00:56:32,012 --> 00:56:35,132
and even that rent is somewhere around eighteen hundred dollars

882
00:56:35,132 --> 00:56:38,852
a month and the wages have not

883
00:56:38,852 --> 00:56:41,712
in all cases have not paced the cost

884
00:56:41,712 --> 00:56:48,512
of housing and so Kate was like even if you had a workforce that wanted to go

885
00:56:48,512 --> 00:56:55,472
work even if you motivate him even if you fixed construction how are they going

886
00:56:55,472 --> 00:57:00,412
to leave the nest to go buy a house and most of these cities in the United States.

887
00:57:00,932 --> 00:57:06,852
And she said, because Jason, I would consider it irresponsible for us to kick

888
00:57:06,852 --> 00:57:10,652
out our two oldest kids knowing that they're getting straight A's in school,

889
00:57:10,772 --> 00:57:16,232
but there's no math that ends up with you can afford your own place right now.

890
00:57:16,332 --> 00:57:19,432
And so then she said this, and I don't know how true it is. I'm just saying

891
00:57:19,432 --> 00:57:24,012
this is what's on my mind, is that if you...

892
00:57:25,215 --> 00:57:28,575
If you're not forced, like our parents were like, get up, right?

893
00:57:28,695 --> 00:57:30,915
You and I don't know if your parents did the same thing, but for me,

894
00:57:30,915 --> 00:57:32,795
they were like, you're 18, you're out.

895
00:57:33,155 --> 00:57:36,215
If you want to stay, you're going to work, you're going to pay rent,

896
00:57:36,335 --> 00:57:37,815
you're going to be in a curfew.

897
00:57:37,835 --> 00:57:42,695
And I was like, F that, like, I'm not, there's zero chance I'm doing these things. I'm out, right?

898
00:57:42,815 --> 00:57:48,335
And at my first apartment was going and living in a little guest house for my first boss.

899
00:57:49,075 --> 00:57:54,195
But Kate's like, Like you can't, if there's no motivation to go fly on your

900
00:57:54,195 --> 00:58:00,915
own, right, until 25, 28, 30 years old, then where's the motivation to go into

901
00:58:00,915 --> 00:58:02,275
some of these trades, right?

902
00:58:02,375 --> 00:58:06,675
I can just stay at home for six, seven, eight years and go to school and then

903
00:58:06,675 --> 00:58:07,955
just get a job at Google, right? Right.

904
00:58:08,015 --> 00:58:13,635
So I am a little panicked. And maybe this shows my bad character on my part,

905
00:58:13,715 --> 00:58:19,355
but I'm a little panicked because the the the way we treat people is creating

906
00:58:19,355 --> 00:58:22,235
is a component in the complex system that's hurting us.

907
00:58:22,375 --> 00:58:25,955
The way we're teaching kids in high school is hurting us.

908
00:58:26,095 --> 00:58:31,535
The COVID-19 and people knowing that some of them that they could subsist off

909
00:58:31,535 --> 00:58:33,935
the government or didn't have to go to work is hurting us.

910
00:58:33,935 --> 00:58:37,215
The housing crisis is hurting us and now it's a what do

911
00:58:37,215 --> 00:58:40,355
they call that felipe we're self-reinforcing feedback

912
00:58:40,355 --> 00:58:43,175
loop right so we don't have enough people

913
00:58:43,175 --> 00:58:46,355
to build in construction so we don't have enough housing a lack

914
00:58:46,355 --> 00:58:49,615
of housing is feeding the fact that we don't have enough workers which

915
00:58:49,615 --> 00:58:52,295
is then feeding that we don't have enough housing and these things are

916
00:58:52,295 --> 00:58:55,155
starting to spiral and we're being

917
00:58:55,155 --> 00:58:57,795
stubborn in the united states about immigration i don't

918
00:58:57,795 --> 00:59:00,835
want to get on on that topic and take this episode

919
00:59:00,835 --> 00:59:03,915
of the podcast and make everybody mad but like from a

920
00:59:03,915 --> 00:59:10,855
data standpoint if oh and recruiters are only accepting people with construction

921
00:59:10,855 --> 00:59:14,815
management experience and they're not accepting folks from other industries

922
00:59:14,815 --> 00:59:21,055
like veterans or police and these other folks so we've got at least ten major.

923
00:59:22,299 --> 00:59:26,059
What would you call them? System components that are working against us and

924
00:59:26,059 --> 00:59:29,419
they're all in self-reinforcing feedback loops.

925
00:59:29,659 --> 00:59:33,239
And I'm a little bit panicked. And why did I say this?

926
00:59:33,759 --> 00:59:38,979
Oh, because I think the point that I'm getting from this conversation and from

927
00:59:38,979 --> 00:59:43,659
you is that we are going to have to start making, oh, I know what it was. I know what it was.

928
00:59:44,359 --> 00:59:50,539
Structural changes changes to our socioeconomic conditions, circumstances, and the system itself.

929
00:59:51,859 --> 00:59:55,539
And like you're talking about, when you have those projects with the perfect

930
00:59:55,539 --> 01:00:00,659
storm, we've got to get in there and show those as example projects and start to scale.

931
01:00:01,339 --> 01:00:06,959
And I'm sorry, that took way too long. But okay, well, I just,

932
01:00:07,039 --> 01:00:08,579
I am a little bit panicked.

933
01:00:08,599 --> 01:00:11,439
Like I've, for three and a half years, you and I have been doing everything

934
01:00:11,439 --> 01:00:15,559
that we can. And by the way, the same thing happens with me where people are

935
01:00:15,559 --> 01:00:19,779
like, Jason, I don't understand you, but Felipe says it's good.

936
01:00:20,119 --> 01:00:24,059
Same thing happens to me. So I appreciate your partnership and your friendship

937
01:00:24,059 --> 01:00:26,659
and your love and miss me some hugs.

938
01:00:26,859 --> 01:00:30,859
We've been doing this for three and a half years with a lot of hopefulness.

939
01:00:31,099 --> 01:00:33,419
And we still have that hopefulness.

940
01:00:33,719 --> 01:00:39,359
I do believe we're probably in a worse situation than we think.

941
01:00:39,359 --> 01:00:45,419
Think and the last thing i want to say like somebody was talking last night what if,

942
01:00:46,499 --> 01:00:49,359
what if russia continues we have

943
01:00:49,359 --> 01:00:56,419
a conflict with china and iran and in israel we no longer in my opinion hal

944
01:00:56,419 --> 01:00:59,759
told me this let me repeat let me just not say it myself but repeat we no longer

945
01:00:59,759 --> 01:01:05,099
have the logistical economies of scale or the ability to produce like we did

946
01:01:05,099 --> 01:01:06,799
in world war ii Like I was listening to,

947
01:01:06,919 --> 01:01:11,099
and this is just his name, please don't get mad at me, but there's a YouTube

948
01:01:11,099 --> 01:01:15,379
channel, it's called The Fat Electrician, and he tells war stories, and he's just amazing.

949
01:01:15,739 --> 01:01:19,179
It's the only YouTube channel other than Felipe's that I'll actually watch.

950
01:01:20,409 --> 01:01:24,109
And he was talking about the Berlin airlift.

951
01:01:24,129 --> 01:01:33,329
You remember that story where the amount, when the Soviets blockaded Berlin in order to take over,

952
01:01:33,469 --> 01:01:39,969
the Allied forces started shipping in supplies to keep West Berlin fed.

953
01:01:40,289 --> 01:01:44,309
And they had to land a plane pretty much every minute.

954
01:01:44,309 --> 01:01:53,609
It and they said if in a day it would be like them airlifting 38 full-size blue whales into.

955
01:01:54,229 --> 01:01:59,309
The berlin airlift it was the largest logistical and humanitarian feat ever

956
01:01:59,309 --> 01:02:05,169
recorded in the history of of the world to their knowledge right and i was just

957
01:02:05,169 --> 01:02:10,469
thinking to myself like do we have that that logistical ability today to produce?

958
01:02:10,589 --> 01:02:16,089
Do we have the logistical ability to produce in the United States if we did go to war?

959
01:02:16,169 --> 01:02:21,049
Do we have the logistical ability to even support our electrical grid,

960
01:02:21,169 --> 01:02:28,089
our services, or any of the, what do you call them, the systems infrastructure in our cities?

961
01:02:28,589 --> 01:02:34,749
And I was in Canada, in Vancouver, and they said in Canada, the World Bank of

962
01:02:34,749 --> 01:02:39,369
Canada did did a study that if they doubled their production for multi-family

963
01:02:39,369 --> 01:02:40,849
housing or any housing whatsoever,

964
01:02:41,469 --> 01:02:44,469
in the next over eight years doubled the number

965
01:02:44,469 --> 01:02:47,509
that they're at now doubled they would barely keep

966
01:02:47,509 --> 01:02:52,269
up demand for housing in canada and that the numbers aren't very much different

967
01:02:52,269 --> 01:02:54,709
in the united states so i'm a little bit panicked what would you say to that

968
01:02:54,709 --> 01:03:00,049
so all all that were you know sometimes jason i indulge in a little losing hope

969
01:03:00,049 --> 01:03:04,689
myself just as a thought experiment i learned from dumbing, like use some theory.

970
01:03:05,069 --> 01:03:09,029
When you think back of systems thinking, yes, there are reinforcing feedback

971
01:03:09,029 --> 01:03:11,009
loops, but there are also...

972
01:03:12,001 --> 01:03:15,641
Loops outside the system that influence the system.

973
01:03:16,181 --> 01:03:20,081
And the things that we're doing with social media, with talking about respect,

974
01:03:20,241 --> 01:03:26,181
sharing our experiences are absolutely those types of things that disrupt the system that's there.

975
01:03:26,521 --> 01:03:30,261
And I think the crisis is that happen.

976
01:03:30,461 --> 01:03:36,001
Like when, when America was thrust going back into history, like World War I, World War II,

977
01:03:36,221 --> 01:03:39,041
you know, you can look back at history and you can make the argument that we

978
01:03:39,041 --> 01:03:39,801
try to stay out of the war,

979
01:03:39,861 --> 01:03:43,441
get into war, whatever but we didn't have production in place

980
01:03:43,441 --> 01:03:46,381
to the levels that we did through the war

981
01:03:46,381 --> 01:03:49,301
and then ending the war all those things were changes

982
01:03:49,301 --> 01:03:52,821
that happened when people recognized we were in crisis we had to get into crisis

983
01:03:52,821 --> 01:03:57,761
and i think you're you're right in saying most people don't recognize that things

984
01:03:57,761 --> 01:04:03,261
are not good yeah jason all the things you said about the housing the education

985
01:04:03,261 --> 01:04:06,601
the even thinking about your kids like kicking them out not kicking them out

986
01:04:06,601 --> 01:04:09,101
these are problems that that everybody has in this country.

987
01:04:09,341 --> 01:04:13,621
Yes. And that, you know, it's like on your mind. If you don't step back and

988
01:04:13,621 --> 01:04:17,981
see all of it together, you think like, oh, I can, I go to the store,

989
01:04:18,041 --> 01:04:19,261
I go to work, everything's okay.

990
01:04:19,721 --> 01:04:23,521
I, you know, I read the news, the news that I want to get, I get my own news,

991
01:04:23,601 --> 01:04:25,561
my own echo chamber and everything's fine.

992
01:04:26,450 --> 01:04:28,870
But it's not when you systematically look at what's happening,

993
01:04:28,990 --> 01:04:35,130
like there are indicators that we're in a decline and, and people are like,

994
01:04:35,210 --> 01:04:37,910
well, so can you be still be hopeful?

995
01:04:38,170 --> 01:04:42,230
And I'm still hopeful because people are waking up every day,

996
01:04:42,330 --> 01:04:46,550
seeing that we're in a decline and they're not just standing still.

997
01:04:46,730 --> 01:04:50,030
Yeah. We're out there doing it. Like you're out there doing it.

998
01:04:50,110 --> 01:04:53,730
I mean, I'm out there doing it. I'm doing the work every day in the way that I can.

999
01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:58,090
Yes. And I'm not trying to say like, I'm super special. Like everybody out there

1000
01:04:58,090 --> 01:05:01,510
who's a change maker, like you do it in your own little sphere.

1001
01:05:02,010 --> 01:05:05,370
And if you're, if you stand and say like, I'm going to change this,

1002
01:05:05,430 --> 01:05:09,110
like what I can control, then you're contributing to making it better.

1003
01:05:09,470 --> 01:05:12,470
And you're not just declining with every, everything else that's declining.

1004
01:05:12,590 --> 01:05:16,890
Like one of the things we learned, like in all these like experiments that we

1005
01:05:16,890 --> 01:05:20,930
do have so much capability to make change.

1006
01:05:21,090 --> 01:05:26,930
Yeah. we can co-create with changes that are happening and we can adapt into any environment.

1007
01:05:27,010 --> 01:05:31,690
Like the human animal is by far the most adaptive animal on the planet.

1008
01:05:31,790 --> 01:05:35,970
No other creature on earth, except for, you know, simple creatures like bacteria

1009
01:05:35,970 --> 01:05:38,770
and insects are all biospheres.

1010
01:05:38,970 --> 01:05:42,970
We're in every single climate where we're like, we even shouldn't be in like

1011
01:05:42,970 --> 01:05:45,110
Antarctica, like, but we can

1012
01:05:45,110 --> 01:05:50,030
manage to ship things in and keep all those scientific bases operating.

1013
01:05:50,590 --> 01:05:54,890
So like, we're everywhere on earth because we're highly adaptive.

1014
01:05:55,250 --> 01:05:58,310
We're in deserts. We're in the rainforests. We're in cities.

1015
01:05:58,310 --> 01:06:01,070
We're in suburbs. We're in farmland. Antarctica.

1016
01:06:01,890 --> 01:06:05,110
We're in Antarctica. We're on the ocean. There's people living on the oceans.

1017
01:06:05,170 --> 01:06:10,770
We have people living in space on space stations for years at a time. Like we're everywhere.

1018
01:06:11,130 --> 01:06:14,270
We are a capability to adapt is phenomenal.

1019
01:06:14,530 --> 01:06:18,550
Yeah. I think that always gives me hope. Just thinking like how adaptive we

1020
01:06:18,550 --> 01:06:22,890
are and you can get used to things like Like the decline is so slow that you

1021
01:06:22,890 --> 01:06:27,610
just get used to it and you don't realize like where it is until you look back or,

1022
01:06:27,670 --> 01:06:30,270
or recognize like, is your situation getting better or worse?

1023
01:06:30,310 --> 01:06:33,890
And I think, you know, for people listening, if you change what you know,

1024
01:06:33,970 --> 01:06:37,750
and you experiment like Jason and I are talking about with these concepts,

1025
01:06:37,990 --> 01:06:44,290
you can create an environment and, uh, and then expand your network with people to get a network effect.

1026
01:06:44,290 --> 01:06:49,970
I think the network effect, recognizing everyone that I put the moniker changemakers

1027
01:06:49,970 --> 01:06:55,510
on on social media are people that I'm recognizing are doing this network effect

1028
01:06:55,510 --> 01:06:58,070
and we work together and band together.

1029
01:06:58,270 --> 01:07:04,850
And I am fiercely protective of the people that are changemakers because every

1030
01:07:04,850 --> 01:07:06,190
day is not a great day for us.

1031
01:07:06,350 --> 01:07:10,570
You're actively trying to implement changes and make something different.

1032
01:07:10,630 --> 01:07:14,610
We're going against the system. It's going to be difficult. It's going to be

1033
01:07:14,610 --> 01:07:18,410
hard and it's going to be things when you take an action that.

1034
01:07:19,275 --> 01:07:21,875
There will be an equal and opposite reaction for what you take.

1035
01:07:21,975 --> 01:07:27,275
And some people can't withstand the pushback and blowback from trying to make these changes.

1036
01:07:27,375 --> 01:07:30,735
And that's why if you're listening out there, you're not alone.

1037
01:07:30,995 --> 01:07:35,275
Like Jason's here, I'm here. And there's thousands of us, billions of people

1038
01:07:35,275 --> 01:07:41,395
like us that we can stand the blowback and pushback and those first order consequences

1039
01:07:41,395 --> 01:07:45,455
and say, we're still going to make positive change anyway. I agree.

1040
01:07:46,175 --> 01:07:49,415
You know, the other thing, so you're so right. Thank you for that. that's

1041
01:07:49,415 --> 01:07:52,195
just what i needed today maybe i just get a little sad when

1042
01:07:52,195 --> 01:07:55,135
i feel sick but you just call me more often like

1043
01:07:55,135 --> 01:08:00,135
yeah well i was getting out of the truck in the airport just feeling a little

1044
01:08:00,135 --> 01:08:05,795
sad about it and then i thought as i was stepping out to go to sandy or irvine

1045
01:08:05,795 --> 01:08:12,435
i was thinking to my no riverside doesn't matter but anyway i as i stepped out i was like well.

1046
01:08:12,915 --> 01:08:16,955
If it does go bad we're safe because there's no way they're not going to need

1047
01:08:16,955 --> 01:08:18,775
us you know so all all the change makers.

1048
01:08:18,975 --> 01:08:23,575
What I hope is after listening to you, you know, everybody, every system,

1049
01:08:23,615 --> 01:08:25,055
every person needs three things, right?

1050
01:08:25,115 --> 01:08:30,015
The knowledge, the motivation, and the circumstances to make real change.

1051
01:08:30,255 --> 01:08:33,895
And I, to your point, the change makers, everyone out there,

1052
01:08:33,915 --> 01:08:39,455
people listening to these podcasts have the knowledge, they have the motivation.

1053
01:08:39,455 --> 01:08:48,915
And when they have the circumstances because the overall socioeconomic system

1054
01:08:48,915 --> 01:08:53,115
is motivated to change, we'll be ready.

1055
01:08:53,415 --> 01:08:58,355
I like it. So I just hope that we don't have to be motivated as a country or

1056
01:08:58,355 --> 01:09:02,315
as an overall industry or as a system from a massive emergency that hurts people.

1057
01:09:02,555 --> 01:09:05,675
I hope the motivation comes in a

1058
01:09:05,675 --> 01:09:08,475
more palatable way but my fear would be

1059
01:09:08,475 --> 01:09:11,435
is that this might be a little uncomfortable but you know hey to your

1060
01:09:11,435 --> 01:09:14,775
point our country always responds and

1061
01:09:14,775 --> 01:09:18,575
rises to the occasion when there's a need so that's going

1062
01:09:18,575 --> 01:09:21,675
to be realized one of these days thank you Felipe hey welcome Jason

1063
01:09:21,675 --> 01:09:24,295
you know we're we're highly adaptive I mean even if you

1064
01:09:24,295 --> 01:09:27,155
and I when we first started tangoing you know when

1065
01:09:27,155 --> 01:09:30,415
we were talking we were both at crossroads when we

1066
01:09:30,415 --> 01:09:33,555
first started talking and we had to like jump

1067
01:09:33,555 --> 01:09:36,995
into the unknown and then take some risks and

1068
01:09:36,995 --> 01:09:39,795
i think you know that's the the difference between us like we

1069
01:09:39,795 --> 01:09:43,175
look back all i look i'm looking back it was three years ago yeah

1070
01:09:43,175 --> 01:09:47,355
four years ago i can do my math right it was three it was three you're spot

1071
01:09:47,355 --> 01:09:51,335
on it was three years ago and you know you look at the the jump that you made

1072
01:09:51,335 --> 01:09:57,255
you literally leaped into the abyss and you just had an intuition like i know

1073
01:09:57,255 --> 01:10:00,535
what this is i could just keep doing this and you You would have been fine.

1074
01:10:00,735 --> 01:10:03,675
Or I can jump and do this, something different.

1075
01:10:04,155 --> 01:10:08,015
And maybe I'll be fine. And I was telling you, jump.

1076
01:10:08,940 --> 01:10:13,060
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate it. Yeah.

1077
01:10:13,440 --> 01:10:16,540
And I said, like, even, you know, even if you jump, like, you're going to be

1078
01:10:16,540 --> 01:10:20,620
fine because I'm going to always be here and you're always going to be here for me.

1079
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:24,260
And that's how, that's how I feel. Like, we have so many people that support

1080
01:10:24,260 --> 01:10:28,420
us and I can't even do the show and not mention, you know, one of our best friends, Brian Melcher.

1081
01:10:28,420 --> 01:10:34,260
Brian has been like incredible to support us both of us and and every time Brian

1082
01:10:34,260 --> 01:10:38,080
and I talk we always talk about like how's Jason doing like and we we're worried

1083
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,280
about you and we think about you like like a brother like we should like we

1084
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:44,860
care yeah here worry is not the right word it's caring,

1085
01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:49,020
right so like even even like now as you're uh you know

1086
01:10:49,020 --> 01:10:52,480
you're fighting this cold I'm telling you to drink some tea and maybe that gets

1087
01:10:52,480 --> 01:10:55,340
edited out but I think I've told Jason like seven times on this show to

1088
01:10:55,340 --> 01:10:59,060
drink some hot water yeah i'll do it i'll do it but

1089
01:10:59,060 --> 01:11:01,840
that's my point like we care and i think

1090
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:04,600
you know when you look at all these things especially when you look at the

1091
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:09,260
news and what's happening in the world like even in world war ii there's stories

1092
01:11:09,260 --> 01:11:14,200
of like when during the christmas soccer game that they played in oh i'm sorry

1093
01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:18,760
world war one in trench warfare like people put their weapons down and it was

1094
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:21,760
the holidays and they got overcome by the holiday spirit and And they stopped

1095
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:23,280
fighting and they played games.

1096
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:28,500
And to me, that's like, that's a signal that yes, we can do terrible things

1097
01:11:28,500 --> 01:11:32,500
to each other, but we equally can do amazing things to each other and treat each other.

1098
01:11:32,540 --> 01:11:35,300
Well, we have the capability for both.

1099
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:39,240
Yeah. It boils down to a choice. Like you can decide how do you want to be?

1100
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:41,180
Do you want to create good spread love?

1101
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:46,200
Or do you want to be like just insular taking care of yourself?

1102
01:11:46,200 --> 01:11:51,060
Myself and I as I've got a teenage son myself now Jason and I tell him like

1103
01:11:51,060 --> 01:11:54,840
you know one thing I've learned over my lifetime is that these emotions that

1104
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:59,260
we feel as we experience things depending on your circumstance like in the moment

1105
01:11:59,260 --> 01:12:02,500
you think like it's just all this one thing yeah reality.

1106
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:08,000
Limitless like her capacity like to feel anger,

1107
01:12:08,923 --> 01:12:14,143
is can go really high, but our capacity to feel love and care for others can go really high.

1108
01:12:14,323 --> 01:12:18,303
It's really kind of infinite. It goes way beyond what you think. Yeah.

1109
01:12:18,443 --> 01:12:21,843
Like you can just choose. Like I just decide a couple of things.

1110
01:12:21,903 --> 01:12:25,243
I decide here's personal belief mantra that I'm teaching my teenager.

1111
01:12:25,783 --> 01:12:29,163
I will decide that no matter what situation I find myself in,

1112
01:12:29,263 --> 01:12:32,163
I'm going to turn it to my advantage so that

1113
01:12:32,163 --> 01:12:35,143
I can benefit and continue to move on and

1114
01:12:35,143 --> 01:12:38,523
not get stuck i'm gonna let things flow i'm gonna

1115
01:12:38,523 --> 01:12:41,783
prioritize flow and then take advantage of any circumstances i

1116
01:12:41,783 --> 01:12:44,623
find myself in yeah like does that

1117
01:12:44,623 --> 01:12:47,623
mean i don't feel feelings no i'll feel the feelings

1118
01:12:47,623 --> 01:12:50,463
but then let them flow through me and then decide

1119
01:12:50,463 --> 01:12:53,763
how i'm gonna proceed yeah and so

1120
01:12:53,763 --> 01:12:56,483
it takes time so like i mean when you

1121
01:12:56,483 --> 01:12:59,223
look at me and my son's always like well he's like sometimes you get

1122
01:12:59,223 --> 01:13:02,503
upset and mad but he's like nothing ever gets you down like every day is a good

1123
01:13:02,503 --> 01:13:05,703
day for you you and it's like yeah yeah it takes it's this practice and this

1124
01:13:05,703 --> 01:13:10,003
belief and the belief reinforces the practice and then it just makes it easier

1125
01:13:10,003 --> 01:13:15,123
to navigate as things happen and it's choice like first it's a choice then it's

1126
01:13:15,123 --> 01:13:19,043
a practice and then you know people even have said about uh.

1127
01:13:19,763 --> 01:13:22,443
Mike rother who studied toyota for a long time and he

1128
01:13:22,443 --> 01:13:27,363
published some books with with uh with other folks like uh learning to see like

1129
01:13:27,363 --> 01:13:31,583
a different type of value stream mapping and And I think Mike has famously said

1130
01:13:31,583 --> 01:13:36,843
it's easier or maybe I'm giving Mike Rother credit that I shouldn't like it's

1131
01:13:36,843 --> 01:13:42,043
easier to act your way into a new way of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting.

1132
01:13:42,503 --> 01:13:46,603
Oh, wow. And I, it might've been like John shook. Now that I'm thinking about

1133
01:13:46,603 --> 01:13:48,003
it from lean enterprise Institute, but.

1134
01:13:49,424 --> 01:13:54,744
Either way, it's, if you do it and you'll get some time to reflect about what

1135
01:13:54,744 --> 01:13:57,324
you're doing, that can reinforce more of the doing.

1136
01:13:57,724 --> 01:14:00,964
Yeah. I love it. So be present. I love that.

1137
01:14:01,184 --> 01:14:05,784
Yeah. I just want to say like, Jason, it's been amazing having this time with

1138
01:14:05,784 --> 01:14:08,384
you and talking and then sharing this conversation with everybody.

1139
01:14:08,464 --> 01:14:12,504
So I just want to super thank you, all the listeners listening,

1140
01:14:12,644 --> 01:14:16,724
like Jason is my brother from another mother. I love Jason.

1141
01:14:17,304 --> 01:14:21,304
And so I want you to remember that, Jason. As you're traveling throughout the

1142
01:14:21,304 --> 01:14:24,884
world, there's at least one person out here. I've got the pom-poms. I'm cheering you.

1143
01:14:25,484 --> 01:14:29,704
I feel the same way. I hope that people, when they go to your Scrum course,

1144
01:14:29,864 --> 01:14:35,004
tell them when it happens this way that I was the one that pointed them there.

1145
01:14:35,284 --> 01:14:39,004
But I tell everyone, you've got to do it. And much more.

1146
01:14:39,544 --> 01:14:42,484
I learned so much from you. So, Felipe, thank you. This has been awesome.

1147
01:14:43,064 --> 01:14:46,204
Same. Jason, when I tell everybody, because I've had people ask me,

1148
01:14:46,264 --> 01:14:48,044
like, well, how much tack do you show?

1149
01:14:48,044 --> 01:14:51,824
I was like well i show a couple examples from jason and i always recommend take

1150
01:14:51,824 --> 01:14:56,384
jason's tech course it'll change your life forever and it's like scrum friendly

1151
01:14:56,384 --> 01:15:01,584
approved yeah yeah yeah you know we learned those uh mural board techniques

1152
01:15:01,584 --> 01:15:04,184
from your mural that's really awesome i love it.

1153
01:15:04,844 --> 01:15:07,524
So all right i love it thank you so

1154
01:15:07,524 --> 01:15:10,424
much jason you know what we're going to say now at the count of three jason right

1155
01:15:10,424 --> 01:15:15,864
yep i know what it is you count it down we'll say it one two three on we go

1156
01:15:15,864 --> 01:15:22,344
i love it that's awesome i'm gonna stop this recording thank you so much felipe

1157
01:15:22,344 --> 01:15:28,044
very special thanks to my guest i'm felipe engineer manriquez.

1158
01:15:31,724 --> 01:15:38,044
The ebfc show is created by felipe and produced by a passion to build easier and better,

1159
01:15:40,764 --> 01:15:48,164
thanks for listening Stay safe, everybody. Let's go build.