Embracing Uncertainty: The Future of Adaptive Construction with Geoff Gosling

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What's something interesting that's happened to you in the last two weeks where

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you definitely felt like you're moving the needle to make work easier,

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better, and faster for people?

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People embracing their ignorance. I've had a few rather interesting conversations

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where people that would have historically said, I know everything about what's coming.

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I know what my future is, and it's always based on the way the past has been.

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The sun will rise tomorrow sort of notion. I've had several conversations in

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the last couple of weeks where people, and I think this is COVID's lingering effect,

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is people coming to understand that their relationship with the future is different

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and that they've embraced that to a certain degree.

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Rather than railing against this uncertainty, I've come across people unexpectedly

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that have come to accept it and view it differently.

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Yeah, I had a similar conversation with a teenage person in the house that I'll

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claim as my child, my son.

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And at that age, and I think it's just human nature, Jeff, like you're tapping onto.

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Everybody thinks that I had an experience yesterday, tomorrow's experience will be similar.

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And i was telling my teenager nothing is

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guaranteed like it's right you know the time you're going to

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get up tomorrow is not even guaranteed there's this little

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concept of variation that a lot of

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people aren't aware of that happens on a daily basis and i think a lot of people

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will classify what happened to the world with covid as an outlier experience

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but when you zoom back in history you'll see that global pandemics are nothing

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new on planet So it just depends on perspective and how zoomed back you can go.

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And I love that you're having that feel with people because there's a resistance.

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We were talking before the show even got started, just getting ready for today's

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show. And there's a resistance to doing things differently.

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And I was talking about how value is always subjective and always changing based on circumstance.

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So this is going to be a great show. Everybody sit back, relax.

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Jeff is masterful in what he's creating.

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He's one of those creative types that you're going to watch this show and just

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be in awe of what's possible for us in the design construction space.

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Welcome to the EBFC show, the easier, better for construction podcast.

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I'm your host, Felipe Engineer Manriquez. This show is all about the business of construction.

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Today's show is also sponsored by the Lean Construction Institute.

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LCI is working to lead the building industry in transforming its practices and culture.

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Its vision is to create a healthy and thriving industry that delivers outstanding

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project outcomes every time for everyone.

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Check the show notes for more information. Now, to the show.

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Welcome to the show. Jeff Gosling. Jeff, it is my pleasure to have you join the EBFC show.

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Ladies and gentlemen, while Jeff is going to be introducing himself,

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please take a look at the description below because down below in the description,

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Jeff's going to have his links, his bio, where to contact him,

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where to learn more about dirt.

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The correct spelling for dirt will also be included in the description below.

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If you're wondering what is dirt and why are we talking about dirt out of construction

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podcast, you're going to find out.

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And the only way that Jeff and I will know, because the way that the podcasting

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works is that you actually have to hit the like button and make a comment so

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that we can engage with you.

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And I'll be paying attention to all the questions you have and will happily

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answer any questions or comments you have.

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First of all, thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to have a the chat.

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My name is Jeff Gosling, an industrial designer, a product designer by profession.

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More of a rambler in execution.

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I'm one of the founders of DIRT. The physical bits has been my responsibility,

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the invention of sort of the nature of the ecosystem, the behavior of the ecosystem.

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That component is very much my child.

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My background is actually not in construction. construction,

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my, the core part of my profession, my, my career has actually been in command

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and control room environment.

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If you watch the shuttle launches at NASA or the Curiosity landing on Mars,

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the consoles within those environments are also my kids that I think brought

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a lot to bear in terms of why dirt was weird in, in terms of our approach.

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Anyway, that's, that's a nickel tour of, of my, my background and interesting

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to see where this conversation goes.

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Oh, yeah, I've got a bunch of questions tuned up and people listening to the

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show that I always like, like to prepare my guests so they have a false sense of security.

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And then I just go right off the bat, Jeff, I'm wondering, what was your favorite

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button to make for a council, especially like in those really high pressure

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environments where people's lives are on the line? Interesting question.

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So I designed the consoles for the FAA in all the towers.

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And one of the things that I invented was an LED light system.

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This is a thousand years ago.

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It was an LED light system that went from white to red.

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And this was actually before LEDs were being used for lighting, right?

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They were just used on annunciator panels and stuff. But what it allowed them

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to do is to mix the white and red.

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And as the sunlight changed and you go into darkness,

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being able to actually read through the transition and actually do your task

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as the environment was changing around you, that was pretty cool.

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I, yeah, I quite enjoyed that one. That was a neat thing.

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Yeah, I love that. And that's like one of the lean construction principles about

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making things visual and human centric. So yeah, the, as they say,

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muy simpatico, Jeff, we're aligned. We're birds of a feather here.

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Now I want to go back into the reason I've had you on the show right now is,

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recently came back to dirt as an organization right before the pandemic in 2019.

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And I know like, as a, like you mentioned, like

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these things that you make and you're a creator type and you're inventing things

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you've got a passion for what you

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make and it's also like like a child right it's

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like it grows up very much you're going to have aspirations so i'm wondering

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like what was your vision for dirt as a system and if you could tell people

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listening what dirt is the system of what makes dirt and then i'd love to hear

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like as you've come back as you have you changed your aspiration for what you want dirt to grow to be.

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That's a mouthful. There's a number of things. So we'll start at the beginning.

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I mentioned that my background is in command and control.

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And one of the things that came out of that experience more than anything was

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really about designing for change and uncertainty.

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And in particular, in an environment that can never shut down, right?

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That's the nature of command and control, 911 and so forth, right?

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You can't send 911 home for the weekend while you do a reconfiguration.

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And how do you actually solve for that how

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do you actually create a solution that allows

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for small adaptive change in a world that

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sort of never shuts down and basically where i landed was solving through a

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notion around layered modularity really adaptive principle and really not looking

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to day one as the goal right day one being simply one day out of thousands but really

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looking at it from a perspective of time and adaptation,

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I learned a lot about how you could create a solution and an environment that

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was indifferent to what comes in the future.

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It's not about future proofing, it's about being future indifferent.

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And so when we started DIRT, That was really at the core of what I was trying

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to achieve, which was to create an environmental design.

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The fact that it's made of stuff is almost irrelevant, frankly.

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But to create an environmental design that allows others to express themselves

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really in the passage of time.

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And how you express yourself can happen from an aesthetic standpoint,

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from a technological standpoint, task structure, social structure, all of that.

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And so taking that sort of notion of layered modularity and applying that to

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the built environment and really allowing people to express themselves freely

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and nimbly and fundamentally creating environments that were relevant,

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like every day, all day long.

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You can imagine that in a control room, like that's really important,

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right? When those people make mistakes, stuff blows up and people die.

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When I make a mistake, I just hit backspace and carry on.

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But to be able to take that and apply it to the world more broadly was really exciting for me. Now.

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When we began, certainly, that was a fairly weird thing, right?

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Whatever it was 20 years ago, people were really pretty much certain that they

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knew what the future held, like we were talking about.

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And so that notion of what we were, it had traction, it had value from a self-expression

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and velocity standpoint and all that, like that, for sure, all good.

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But I think that it's really coming home to roost now. I don't mean to put this all on COVID.

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What COVID did was it just shone a light on that uncertainty.

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But to your earlier point, our relationship to change, that's been a thing throughout

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our history, not just related to pandemic, but who we are culturally.

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Culturally, just a little, I'll deviate for a second here.

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When I think about this from a cultural perspective, and I think about like

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my great-grandfather and my grandfather, their idea of change was probably pretty

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similar. Their lives would have been very similar.

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And so far from my grandfather and my father, it starts to accelerate between

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myself and my dad, but accelerated more.

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But now the relationship between myself and my son or my daughters,

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their embracing of change is also very different.

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We were at one end of the continuum with my great-grandfather,

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and now I think we're reaching towards a saturation point in terms of embracing

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change and accepting uncertainty.

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And so it feels to me like there's this very natural conversion.

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Not just around how things like technologies and so forth affect our lives and

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their role within our lives,

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but also just our overall attitude around the nature of change and uncertainty.

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And so where I was mapping this idea of change and adaptation from the control

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room, however many years ago that was, to what I'm seeing now, all those sort of early,

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conceptual notions are, I feel like they're coming home to roost.

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And for me, that's probably one of the greatest rewards.

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And frankly, it's one of the reasons.

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Why I came off the bench. The idea that this idea that change and uncertainty

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and just allowing the world to evolve and adapt,

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becoming more commonplace and people being more open to these notions.

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And then people like my kids, they're the ones that are coming up and they're

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the ones that are starting to drive change and making decisions around this.

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So that's a bit of rambling there, But that's a large part of what,

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what I see as particularly exciting.

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I think the, it sounds like from what I'm hearing, the aspirations,

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you're just doubling down.

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Yeah. We want dirt to, it's going to continue to serve.

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And I've been actually on a couple of large hospital projects over the course of my career.

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And I think probably five of them had a dirt wall systems in them.

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And the first one I went to, it was like, it was a very collaborative project

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in Southern California.

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And it was a mixed team. There were two general contractors.

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One was responsible for dirt kind of acting like as a subcontractor trade partner.

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And then everybody was just talking about how flexible dirt walls were.

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So for people listening, just imagine any hospital that you walk through and

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you just don't even, you're not even aware that the walls can change.

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That's what, that's what I understood dirt to be after a couple of meetings.

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Cause people are just throwing the word dirt around so much.

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I was like dirt wall. I'm like, I was like, is there a cleaning problem on this job? Yeah.

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Yeah. And then I was starting to realize that there's so much flexibility for

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the designers and the architects in particular.

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Where at this point in the first project where i

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was on with dirt the wall and room sizes weren't fixed

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and so there's things in the dirt assemblies where there's like modular space

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that's like can be easily like cut down lengthened or shortened with like you

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were saying like as easy as hitting backspace on your keyboard and so from the

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watching the hospital play with this was like watching kids play with Legos.

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Yeah. But in a clean environment.

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Yeah, you actually bring up one of the important points.

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And as you're talking, I also realized I didn't answer your question, which was what is dirt?

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Oh, let's get away with it, Jeff. I got you. Yeah, no, I'm self-policing here.

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So to that point, right, dirt is really this sort of series of elemental layers, right?

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So we took modularity, right? If you think about the history of modularity of

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modularity and why it exists in the first place.

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It was really just for the benefit of the manufacturer, right?

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So we could build big things in factories, put them on the back of a truck and

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ship them to sites and you're done with it. You're shifting labor,

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you're doing all those things.

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But really, if you think about the sort of the community around it,

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the manufacturers were really the primary beneficiary of that behavior.

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And a large part of what DERP sought to achieve was to distribute the benefit.

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And we fundamentally just took that notion of modularity and broke it up into

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small digestible chunks.

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So our world consists of structural layers, aesthetic layers,

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technological layers, context is the layer, like where it is.

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And so when you start to break those things up, suddenly the variability starts to get interesting.

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And then you start to introduce elasticity.

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So we have elasticity in our world. We don't have finite dimensions of things.

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Composition is free form. One of the goals is to walk into a dirt-built environment

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and not recognize it as dirt, right?

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It's not our right. It's in our place to put our fingerprint on the environment.

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It's the expression of the end user, whether it's the client or the architect,

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what have you. It's their expression that matters.

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And what's really important, though, is that those layers have to remain independent over time.

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And that's probably the biggest difference is that continued indifference.

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And so we have these series of layers that allow for small adaptive change.

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And it's not necessarily about moving walls, but changing what they're doing,

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right, as they start to integrate technologies and so forth.

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So that's really the underlying principle of what we are.

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And you brought up a really interesting point, which is.

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It's not just about external forces causing evolution, but it also introduces

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the opportunity for play, right?

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You can, through the same behavior, try stuff out without risk, right?

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Which means that, and as design is an iterative process, and if you can try

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things out without risk, suddenly the end result, and there really is no end result.

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It just carries on, but the outcomes are always significantly better when you

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have an opportunity to play.

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And that's the other aspect that starts to happen here when you create these

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environmental designs that are indifferent to their future state.

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Yeah, I like that a lot. And I could see like in the teams, the various teams

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that have had dirt systems in them, the level of stress is really different.

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Like there's still some pressure to get something done and iterate on design,

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but in the teams that I've seen using dirt, I can measurably see less stress

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because there's so much flexibility and I think a lot of people,

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especially a lot of owners in healthcare and people in construction in general

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often get frustrated with late decision-making and just not,

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and I think some of that is to do with the variation of like,

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there's not enough constraints

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or people misapply constraints to what they can do.

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And I think with the dirt system, it really changes the conversation because

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the system has so much flexibility.

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People have to answer questions like, what are we going to do in this room?

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Like, what's the function of this? And they're getting down to like,

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how are people going to interact with the space?

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And, and I'm not saying designers, like don't come after me on the podcast,

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but that you don't do this anyway.

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Way, but when you're using, like, if you're used to always using fixed systems

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where like, once you set this wall, it's it most healthcare construction,

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the second, like, especially if it's a large hospital, they're not even finished

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building the thing before they start renovating and changing it.

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I think that's a cool thing that, that your system has some,

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like you said, there's really no, no hard limit how it could be changed and adapted to the future.

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Highlighting a really important aspect of this, which is.

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All of the other parts of the process that get affected by this behavior, right?

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It's not just what happens when it's on site, but it's all those things that

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are leading up to that first day.

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Like if you think about the nature of design historically, and where I really

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learned this was in the crucible of the chromatic control room environment.

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I remember I designed the consoles for the city of Chicago, and my first meeting

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with them was myself and 45 people from the city of Chicago.

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I wish I was joking. It was 45 people, and they all had a vote,

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but for good reason, right? They're risk-averse because there's a lot at stake.

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Healthcare is actually very similar to command and control environment in that

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they're 24-7 mission-critical spaces and so forth.

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But the vast majority of the design activity, because they could never shut

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down and reconfigure, and their lifespan was 10, 15 years before a change would happen.

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Because there's so much at stake, you end up with so many sort of votes,

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and invariably the outcome is the camel being the horse designed by a committee, right?

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It's an averaging out of all these potential futures, and the amount of energy

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that goes into understanding what might happen in the future,

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and you design this thing that is the averaging out of all of that,

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It means that the solution is fundamentally never relevant because it's accounting

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for all these things that will definitely not arise.

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And the energy that goes into that activity is remarkable.

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So instead, to your point about people relaxing, they have a lot of fidelity

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about who they are today, the tools they use today, their relationships,

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all those things. They have fidelity about today. day.

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So if you can design for what you know, and you know it absolutely,

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with the understanding that you can get there from here and allow the future to arrive,

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what you end up with at the beginning is significantly different,

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and I think significantly better.

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And also, that energy is put towards better use, and then the world just evolves.

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You don't have to plan for what's coming. You respond to the external environmental

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sort of demands that cause for adaptive change.

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And it's a continuous thing. It's just like evolution in nature, right?

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The dinosaur didn't know he was going to become a duck.

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And the duck is on its way to being who knows what. But there was nothing about that was planned.

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It was a response to a changing external environment.

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And all of that sort of congregates into, I think, a much more sort of practical answer.

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And I think you just answered my next question already, which is perfect. Phenomenal.

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We hear all the time that building enclosure is the number one problem in construction.

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And when the task of the building enclosure is presented with so much pressure,

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it's something most of us would want to avoid.

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Until now, there has never been a course to teach someone how to manage a building enclosure.

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Building enclosure is a problem for every company. and the solution is often

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to ask someone within to try to find training or provide training to their teams to avoid these issues.

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Field Verified's Enclosure Management course is the answer to that problem.

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We learned the hard way. We've learned through failure. We've learned from others.

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This course, our team, will help those people who are assigned to manage the

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building enclosure be successful the first time so that they're spared some

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of the suffering and hardships that all of us went through.

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There's so much opportunity for a high return on investment,

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not just when an individual attends and all of the skills that they'll achieve,

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but when a team participates together,

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they can raise their level of performance by knowing what each other can do,

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what to expect, and they can raise the level of performance of that company

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as their careers excel and the company elevates along with them.

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The training is built on the science of how people learn. We capture all of

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the components that are necessary to master a skill.

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There's a hands-on component to the training where we're building a masonry

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mock-up, a metal panel mock-up, we're doing EFIS, and even installing a window

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that later you get to test.

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The hands-on training gives us the opportunity to translate the lines on paper

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to actual construction in the field.

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We always laugh because after the training, people come up and say,

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you know, this isn't just about building enclosure.

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There's a lot of leadership in here. There are a lot of people skills.

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That's because those skills are necessary to be successful in building enclosure and in construction.

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We'd love to see you get started right away. We have lots of options available.

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00:23:27,988 --> 00:23:32,248
They can come to us in person at Field Verified in Phoenix, or we can bring

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00:23:32,248 --> 00:23:36,608
the entire operation to your facility and train up to 25 people at a time.

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And we've created an online training that's available for people who might not

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be able to attend in person.

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Go to the website and contact us. We're going to start by understanding what

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problems you're currently experiencing and develop a specific program that's

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right for the needs of your company.

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So I was going to, I was going to ask you how this approach with dirt ties into

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lean construction principles.

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And I'm going to define lean construction because it is, apparently it's a controversial

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definition in the community.

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There's a lot of banter on social media about is lean dead.

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And there's posts almost every day about how this idea has gone.

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But fundamentally what lean construction is, it's a mindset centered on learning

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and adapting and fundamentally a belief.

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This is not in any textbook definition, but I've been studying this and playing

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with this for about 15 years.

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It's a mindset that you think and believe things can get better every day.

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And I love what you were saying about the adaptability and the ability to be agile.

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I think that's really important. Like natural human condition is that we're

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born with amnesia into any given environment.

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And people are on every single ecosystem on the planet without exception. We live everywhere.

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High elevations, low elevations, above sea, below sea, in space, rotating around.

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We're just everywhere on the planet we have high adaptability

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that's our natural condition but then through the

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through through work and culture and tradition

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like we like really get specific and narrow down

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and then even in construction it's very traditional

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and some people argue that the techniques we use today

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are unchanged since the 1800s so there's a lot

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of tradition and people are resistant to doing things

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differently even the concept of like dirt is a

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solution for clients and architects you

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still have to bring people along and educate

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them on like what is even possible because the vast majority of designers don't

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learn about what this new technology is and like you said you've been playing

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with this for decades like even if it was 30 years old it still had not permeated

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across all the design disciplines and schools right and

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an architect doesn't know in their training how to integrate new electrical

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information technology that's available now that even six years ago,

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10 years ago, 20 years ago, wasn't even known when they were in school.

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Like we can nerd out on like just cat cable for ethernet connections, but we won't go there.

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But I do want to ask, is there anything that I left out on given that definition

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of lean and lean is learning just to simplify what's,

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what is special about dirt's approach that really makes it like a thing of choice

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for lean builders and designers.

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So here's the thing that we're cheating, right?

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In that we are an isolated part of the environment.

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There's this collaboration between ourselves and the wider world where our role

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is to reach across the table.

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All that sort of adaptive side of things is sitting inside of dirt.

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And the reason for that was to allow for us to control the variables within that part of the world.

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With the rest of the built environment, there's aspects that don't have that same latitude.

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Having said that, I think focusing on interface,

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I think language is one of the things that is lost in the built environment,

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understanding the role of language and by language, how things talk,

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what is the relationship of elements,

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simply bolting things together is there's It's expedient, but it may not be

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inducive to adaptation and evolution.

378
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You know, there's this notion that fast is the answer, but when all you're doing

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is looking at velocity, you're not taking into consideration sort of day two things.

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Lego is a fantastic example. People often talk about dirt like we're tall,

381
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skinny Lego, but we're not.

382
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If you think about those bricks, one invades the other.

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And if I build a large object, say a nice big green dinosaur,

384
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and I have a red brick inside by accident, I have two choices.

385
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One is to dismantle that dinosaur all the way to that red brick and change it,

386
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or I learn to love the red brick.

387
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And that is a fully modular object, but it's language.

388
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How they're actually talking to each other limits its adaptability.

389
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And I would like to see more sort of introduction of time and that sort of notion of ignorance, right?

390
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Objects being ignorant of what their neighbors are up to.

391
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A greater focus on that notion of language.

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The thing that excites me as it relates to dirt is that the more the wider world understands this,

393
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the more supercharged our environment starts to get because our activity has

394
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been to accommodate all the imperfections of construction past.

395
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And that's not an easy thing because these things are built by people and we're

396
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flawed and physics starts to play a role.

397
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So I think that if that sort of conceptual framework around time and how we

398
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solve things over time became more mainstream,

399
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the more nimble these environments can become, the more broadly people can engage

400
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in their space, and the more they are actually fundamentally relevant.

401
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Naturally, the goal, you want all these environments, whether they're healthcare

402
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or residential or what have you.

403
00:29:50,824 --> 00:29:55,764
You want them to be an extension of those that are occupying it.

404
00:29:55,844 --> 00:30:01,244
If you think about the technologies you use, you invariably have to conform

405
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to the technology as opposed to the technology conforming to you.

406
00:30:05,924 --> 00:30:09,844
To me, a well-designed object is something that you're not aware of using.

407
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And what's like an ill-fitting hammer or what have you, something that's uncomfortable,

408
00:30:15,524 --> 00:30:20,224
where I have to make that accommodation, it gets in the way of the process.

409
00:30:20,824 --> 00:30:26,804
But a well-defined object or space, what have you, literally and figuratively disappears.

410
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I always think about drinking a beer. That's like my model, right?

411
00:30:31,504 --> 00:30:35,544
Like a well-designed glass, I am focused on the beer itself.

412
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But if it's a poorly designed glass, I have to make sure I'm not spilling all

413
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over myself and so forth.

414
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And that's really, because we change over time, I think that's really important

415
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to be be able to have the rest of the space, have those kinds of responses.

416
00:30:51,744 --> 00:30:54,884
Anyway, that was a long-winded answer to a very simple question.

417
00:30:55,124 --> 00:30:58,564
You hit the other side of the lean definition that I missed when I was setting

418
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it up, which is the respect for people part that's so pivotal to honoring what it means to be human.

419
00:31:06,204 --> 00:31:11,224
So I really liked that answer a lot, Jeff. And it's going to take me to the next area.

420
00:31:11,424 --> 00:31:14,644
Like if you're thinking about dirt as

421
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you're describing it as like an ecosystem to become an extension of

422
00:31:17,924 --> 00:31:20,784
people or it just disappears and we don't even notice it

423
00:31:20,784 --> 00:31:23,704
what's a place like in your mind where you're like this

424
00:31:23,704 --> 00:31:26,684
would be perfect for a dirt solution

425
00:31:26,684 --> 00:31:29,864
like what is the ideal place for

426
00:31:29,864 --> 00:31:32,924
dirt to be used i'd be lying if

427
00:31:32,924 --> 00:31:35,904
i didn't say everywhere but you got to

428
00:31:35,904 --> 00:31:39,264
go with it but like i'll paint me a picture like yeah walking

429
00:31:39,264 --> 00:31:42,324
into it's like just using your imagination running wild

430
00:31:42,324 --> 00:31:45,124
like no we never get to hear from the creator or

431
00:31:45,124 --> 00:31:48,644
something okay let's start well so the beginning actually is

432
00:31:48,644 --> 00:31:51,804
really the thing that excites me and so

433
00:31:51,804 --> 00:31:58,404
i actually designed another wall system before dirt and i was the client and

434
00:31:58,404 --> 00:32:04,624
it was for my home and so i think about space in terms of levels of intimacy

435
00:32:04,624 --> 00:32:10,004
right like how closely engaged i am and so the home is

436
00:32:10,044 --> 00:32:14,584
obviously the most intimate space, or at least I hope it is for folks.

437
00:32:15,304 --> 00:32:21,684
And I had three young children and I had no idea where, what was needed or what have you.

438
00:32:21,744 --> 00:32:24,964
So I started to, and I was still doing command and control room work.

439
00:32:25,084 --> 00:32:29,504
This was pre-Durrett. And I, but it occurred to me, wouldn't it be wonderful

440
00:32:29,504 --> 00:32:37,404
if I could have my family evolve and change without me having to place a bet

441
00:32:37,404 --> 00:32:39,764
on what the future might hold.

442
00:32:40,244 --> 00:32:44,904
And that was in support of this kind of notion of conceptual framework.

443
00:32:45,044 --> 00:32:49,704
And again, I think about how we interact with our homes and what we do, like.

444
00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:56,640
People would never design a one bedroom house because it's their primary asset

445
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,000
and they would be terrified of pigeonholing, right?

446
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,960
There's not a lot of people that are out looking for a one bedroom house.

447
00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:08,380
So you would never build a home for yourself if that's who you were, right?

448
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,260
You would build a three bedroom, two and a half bath, whatever,

449
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,760
for somebody who you'll never meet 15 years from now, but you're going to live

450
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,180
in it, right? And so I find you step back and go, that's nuts.

451
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:26,800
Why would I do that? If this is my place, the thing that I've always imagined.

452
00:33:27,020 --> 00:33:31,060
So I start off, I build this, what's an envelope and it's one bedroom and then

453
00:33:31,060 --> 00:33:33,540
kids arrive. It's a two bedroom. It's a three bedroom.

454
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,140
They head off to college. It's a two bedroom. It's a one bedroom.

455
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:42,720
It's still my home. I want to stay there, but I'm failing.

456
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,660
And now there's this sort of continuum between residential and healthcare,

457
00:33:47,940 --> 00:33:51,460
the whole sort of notion of age in place,

458
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:58,680
where the role of technology starts to move in, but also being able to put technology in its place.

459
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:05,380
We are invariably a servant to the technology, especially as we fail,

460
00:34:05,420 --> 00:34:08,260
we become more aware because it's in our face.

461
00:34:08,700 --> 00:34:14,160
People don't modify their homes for age and place because they're farming their asset.

462
00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:20,340
What if I could just start to integrate age and place and it's still my home,

463
00:34:20,380 --> 00:34:21,920
it's still an extension of me.

464
00:34:22,300 --> 00:34:26,800
And then it's time for me to move on and you show up and you want to buy the

465
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,200
house, but you need three bedrooms.

466
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:36,780
And I go, give me a week, right? Like, not only does it manage the evolutionary

467
00:34:36,780 --> 00:34:41,500
side of who I am as the person residing and using the space,

468
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,980
but also abrupt change, right?

469
00:34:44,060 --> 00:34:51,100
Changes in tenants, changes in tasks, like all manner of different levels of adaptive change.

470
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:59,160
And so for me, it's really back to that. We're starting to explore residential

471
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,760
conversions as an example from commercial space, right?

472
00:35:03,860 --> 00:35:09,940
The hybrid notion of work affecting use of commercial environments.

473
00:35:09,940 --> 00:35:15,740
But the fact that it's a single answer to multiple environments and that whether

474
00:35:15,740 --> 00:35:17,600
it's healthcare or what have you,

475
00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:24,020
these are just simply attributes that make that space unique means that we can

476
00:35:24,020 --> 00:35:28,240
ebb and flow as those things start to evolve.

477
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:35,160
And I guess that's the part that I really start to think about differently, which is.

478
00:35:36,051 --> 00:35:40,711
Our notion of what construction should be, what a wall should look like,

479
00:35:40,711 --> 00:35:45,131
to your point about being in a dirt environment and not feeling like it's this

480
00:35:45,131 --> 00:35:48,111
modular, impermanent thing.

481
00:35:48,291 --> 00:35:53,731
By the way, that was part of the trick, right? Like to find visual cues that

482
00:35:53,731 --> 00:35:58,711
sort of fool the eye into not believing that it's modular, right?

483
00:35:58,931 --> 00:36:03,051
Repeated rhythms will tell you all day long that things are fully modular and

484
00:36:03,051 --> 00:36:04,411
the world could end at any minute.

485
00:36:04,411 --> 00:36:07,211
But that the separation of those

486
00:36:07,211 --> 00:36:10,111
layers like the aesthetic layers and the structural layers means

487
00:36:10,111 --> 00:36:13,411
that you can have radically different expressions that do

488
00:36:13,411 --> 00:36:17,091
not conform to module kind of

489
00:36:17,091 --> 00:36:21,071
behavior so it fools you into thinking

490
00:36:21,071 --> 00:36:24,451
that it's permanent while having the fully adaptive notion

491
00:36:24,451 --> 00:36:28,391
but broadening our perspective around that

492
00:36:28,391 --> 00:36:31,371
and as opposed to trying

493
00:36:31,371 --> 00:36:34,811
to make it look like drywall it's its thing right

494
00:36:34,811 --> 00:36:38,331
you wouldn't ask brick to look like drywall so why

495
00:36:38,331 --> 00:36:41,111
are so why are we asking these other materials to look

496
00:36:41,111 --> 00:36:44,371
like drywall drywall is like the last

497
00:36:44,371 --> 00:36:50,671
place to start in my mind i understand it but at the same time as this passes

498
00:36:50,671 --> 00:36:57,451
through time these are more expected and accepted aesthetic expressions and

499
00:36:57,451 --> 00:37:02,211
the more broadly they can be applied for me the more exciting it is.

500
00:37:02,271 --> 00:37:09,611
My goal in all of this is to be able to create spaces that are actually participating,

501
00:37:09,611 --> 00:37:12,631
not just sitting there putting boundaries.

502
00:37:14,005 --> 00:37:17,205
That's phenomenal. And I think that brings me to the next thing that I wanted

503
00:37:17,205 --> 00:37:21,485
to hit on is given that potential and I love how you brought it back to the home.

504
00:37:21,565 --> 00:37:25,905
And as you were talking, I was, my mind was flashing through the things in the

505
00:37:25,905 --> 00:37:29,365
house that I'm in now where the studio is in that I would change.

506
00:37:29,365 --> 00:37:34,325
If I could change it in a week, I would, but because it's so permanent, I can't change it.

507
00:37:34,365 --> 00:37:37,785
And it's limited my ability to do some of the things that I want to do in the house.

508
00:37:37,785 --> 00:37:42,245
And if I had the ability like you do to just change things within the five days,

509
00:37:42,305 --> 00:37:46,745
if I knew that I could change the studio in five days to something else, to like a bedroom,

510
00:37:46,845 --> 00:37:49,585
like if I was going to have company coming over for extended period of time,

511
00:37:49,645 --> 00:37:52,925
as an example, like I would do it in a heartbeat.

512
00:37:53,465 --> 00:37:58,965
And my poor wife, people would never not be here visiting if I could do that, Jeff.

513
00:37:58,985 --> 00:38:01,725
So maybe it's a good thing that I can't change my house so easily.

514
00:38:01,925 --> 00:38:03,385
No, it's time for a dirt house.

515
00:38:03,645 --> 00:38:08,505
Yeah. Because I'm super social and I like to have lots of people around.

516
00:38:08,805 --> 00:38:11,985
So I think that brings me back to the industry.

517
00:38:12,085 --> 00:38:16,705
Like design and construction we talked about is very traditional and it even doesn't embrace lean.

518
00:38:16,805 --> 00:38:18,945
Like lean is like some outlier where

519
00:38:18,945 --> 00:38:22,805
like we look like crazy people to the everyday people in the industry.

520
00:38:23,325 --> 00:38:28,385
And then you as a, I would put you like as a technologist inventor as how I

521
00:38:28,385 --> 00:38:30,565
would classify you, Jeff, because you're so forward thinking,

522
00:38:30,705 --> 00:38:33,865
solving problems that people don't even know that they have or recognize.

523
00:38:34,005 --> 00:38:39,385
From your perspective, as the architect of all this, what are the challenges

524
00:38:39,385 --> 00:38:43,425
and opportunities for construction to embrace this bigger and go beyond the

525
00:38:43,425 --> 00:38:47,525
limitations of thinking walls are a necessary evil to create spaces?

526
00:38:49,205 --> 00:38:54,225
That's a really multidimensional question. The first one is cultural.

527
00:38:54,885 --> 00:39:00,745
The industry is full of people with a lot of expertise within a framework,

528
00:39:00,965 --> 00:39:06,245
especially guys my age. A lot of our self-worth is buried in our knowledge base.

529
00:39:07,218 --> 00:39:15,258
And so starting to challenge that knowledge base or even just challenging that

530
00:39:15,258 --> 00:39:20,118
perspective, it becomes personal for a lot of people.

531
00:39:20,378 --> 00:39:22,858
And change is difficult just anyway.

532
00:39:23,138 --> 00:39:29,438
Even if you're hungry for change, if you're an early adopter, it's not easy.

533
00:39:29,638 --> 00:39:35,158
And so there's a certain amount of rewiring that is required.

534
00:39:35,158 --> 00:39:41,098
And so that's going to have to come with sort of new people,

535
00:39:41,258 --> 00:39:46,318
but also how we convey what we are, what our goals are.

536
00:39:46,458 --> 00:39:52,878
They're not meant to say that the ways before were wrong.

537
00:39:52,878 --> 00:39:56,418
They were right given their

538
00:39:56,418 --> 00:39:59,038
framework given the things that were available like the

539
00:39:59,038 --> 00:40:01,978
technologies were just non-existent you have to lean on

540
00:40:01,978 --> 00:40:09,158
craft and trades in a very particular way and so there's immense validity to

541
00:40:09,158 --> 00:40:16,538
why we're here so i think that's one aspect of it also the roles that people

542
00:40:16,538 --> 00:40:21,778
have to play for a space over time, right?

543
00:40:21,898 --> 00:40:28,518
Because there are certain constituencies that are temporary or have been temporary.

544
00:40:28,738 --> 00:40:35,258
Say the general contractor might be there for day one, and then the fact that

545
00:40:35,258 --> 00:40:42,358
it can live on and be nimble and all those things over time may be considered less important to them.

546
00:40:42,458 --> 00:40:46,578
So their perspective on that would be different. One of the things in all of

547
00:40:46,578 --> 00:40:52,978
this, I think, is to understand that it's this weird misshapen object that depending

548
00:40:52,978 --> 00:40:55,798
on where you sit, it looks differently.

549
00:40:56,018 --> 00:41:01,238
We can all be looking at the same thing, but our understanding of it is different.

550
00:41:01,798 --> 00:41:06,338
And so that's where communication starts to take a really important role,

551
00:41:06,478 --> 00:41:09,998
making sure that we're telling each other, we're illuminating the other side

552
00:41:09,998 --> 00:41:11,978
to the other constituents.

553
00:41:12,998 --> 00:41:16,098
Architects, designers, they may have a similar kind of notion.

554
00:41:16,178 --> 00:41:17,278
They're solving for day one.

555
00:41:17,738 --> 00:41:25,318
But where I see the opportunity in all of this is that through just simple reframing

556
00:41:25,318 --> 00:41:31,278
the conversation, there's an ongoing engagement potential on the architectural and design front.

557
00:41:31,398 --> 00:41:36,198
The general contractor could have an ongoing engagement in terms of adaptation,

558
00:41:36,598 --> 00:41:37,938
evolution, revolution, right?

559
00:41:38,038 --> 00:41:40,818
It's not just handing the keys and walking away.

560
00:41:41,338 --> 00:41:45,938
And the opportunities for the lifelong relationship...

561
00:41:47,152 --> 00:41:50,732
Is starts to show up and then letting

562
00:41:50,732 --> 00:41:53,852
codes and so forth catch up to these behaviors too

563
00:41:53,852 --> 00:41:56,852
right like there's you're talking

564
00:41:56,852 --> 00:42:02,712
about the electrical side there's a lot of things that can happen quickly like

565
00:42:02,712 --> 00:42:09,112
physically i can go and invent a thing all well and good but code's not ready

566
00:42:09,112 --> 00:42:15,132
for you and not to say that they're not and they're not ready for a lot of really good reasons.

567
00:42:15,212 --> 00:42:20,552
I'm very happy that there's adults in the room. But when it comes to that, right?

568
00:42:22,032 --> 00:42:26,212
I'm not saying poet is an encumbrance in any way, shape, or form.

569
00:42:26,452 --> 00:42:29,132
It's just one of the harsh realities.

570
00:42:29,452 --> 00:42:33,372
And so that sort of lagged evolution.

571
00:42:33,972 --> 00:42:39,452
And I think there will come a point where it will make that transition to this

572
00:42:39,452 --> 00:42:45,492
sort of alternate perspective or more included, it better, more completely, more broadly.

573
00:42:45,792 --> 00:42:50,252
That was a lot of rambling. I hope I finally answered the question. I have no clue.

574
00:42:50,512 --> 00:42:54,412
You did. I always keep you on point, Jeff. And to send the audience out on a

575
00:42:54,412 --> 00:42:56,552
high note, because you got a big smile on your face.

576
00:42:56,592 --> 00:43:00,732
For people listening only to the audio, Jeff has been just smiling the whole

577
00:43:00,732 --> 00:43:04,752
time as he's talked about his little baby that is growing so nicely.

578
00:43:05,052 --> 00:43:09,072
I wonder from your perspective, Jeff, given where your vantage point is and

579
00:43:09,072 --> 00:43:13,132
that you came back, like you said, off the bench, what are you excited about

580
00:43:13,132 --> 00:43:16,812
in terms of technology for construction on a go forward?

581
00:43:16,932 --> 00:43:20,612
Like what's something that, that people listening might not even be aware of?

582
00:43:20,632 --> 00:43:23,512
Like when you mentioned the led just changing from like white to red,

583
00:43:23,692 --> 00:43:27,952
and that happened decades ago, there's people that don't even know that's a thing now.

584
00:43:28,212 --> 00:43:31,812
So like from your vantage point, as you've talked to the everyday person,

585
00:43:32,012 --> 00:43:36,112
what's the technology that's got you excited for like either right now or for

586
00:43:36,112 --> 00:43:37,652
like a year or two from now?

587
00:43:38,652 --> 00:43:42,492
You know what? I don't think I would pick a technology.

588
00:43:42,832 --> 00:43:49,012
I think I would more talk about our relationship with technology.

589
00:43:49,632 --> 00:43:57,792
I think that we're getting over this hurdle of technology as enemy.

590
00:43:57,792 --> 00:44:04,072
I've got a unique perspective since I was a kid, I've been exposed to technology.

591
00:44:04,172 --> 00:44:07,132
You probably don't know this, but my older brother is James Gosling.

592
00:44:07,232 --> 00:44:08,472
He's the guy that invented Java.

593
00:44:09,192 --> 00:44:14,272
And, and yes, I'm the dumb, the dumb one by a lot. But so I've had this relationship

594
00:44:14,272 --> 00:44:18,592
with technology through my brother and my profession for quite a long time.

595
00:44:19,615 --> 00:44:27,315
But I think it's become so commonplace that our willingness to engage with it,

596
00:44:27,415 --> 00:44:34,375
our willingness to treat it as a tool as opposed to a mysterious object,

597
00:44:34,655 --> 00:44:38,135
this thing at a distance, I think that is evolving.

598
00:44:38,555 --> 00:44:45,455
And I think that we're starting to come towards another notion of convergence

599
00:44:45,455 --> 00:44:48,475
where we start to place trust in technology.

600
00:44:48,475 --> 00:44:52,595
Whether it's through virtually imagining spaces,

601
00:44:53,135 --> 00:44:59,895
designing virtually, which I've done for decades, and being able to iterate

602
00:44:59,895 --> 00:45:04,175
and explore in ways that we've never been able to.

603
00:45:04,175 --> 00:45:08,295
It's been commonplace for people that are within the profession,

604
00:45:08,555 --> 00:45:17,335
and I think that it is becoming commonplace for people that engage with people

605
00:45:17,335 --> 00:45:20,755
within the profession, if you follow me, our clients, our end users.

606
00:45:20,755 --> 00:45:28,735
People can go into a virtual environment and rather than be blown away by the

607
00:45:28,735 --> 00:45:33,815
technology, they can actually focus on why they're there in the first place,

608
00:45:33,875 --> 00:45:35,555
which is to actually explore.

609
00:45:35,975 --> 00:45:44,235
So technology as the tool, back to my beer analogy, is starting to disappear.

610
00:45:44,815 --> 00:45:49,215
That's what I see. That's the part that excites me.

611
00:45:49,215 --> 00:45:52,795
Me the more invisible the technology becomes

612
00:45:52,795 --> 00:45:55,895
the more it becomes the

613
00:45:55,895 --> 00:45:58,995
servants of the process as opposed to the thing

614
00:45:58,995 --> 00:46:05,355
that the process is about the better it will all be and the outcomes will be

615
00:46:05,355 --> 00:46:09,835
all that much better jeff thank you so much for coming on the show this has

616
00:46:09,835 --> 00:46:14,335
been an enlightening conversation i know that we'll have so much more to talk

617
00:46:14,335 --> 00:46:17,355
about in the future as time love you yeah Yeah,

618
00:46:17,355 --> 00:46:21,475
and I super appreciate you spending this precious time with me.

619
00:46:21,835 --> 00:46:26,015
I've enjoyed every second of this. And please do tell your brother that I,

620
00:46:26,115 --> 00:46:30,115
of all the programming languages I learned, because I started off as a computer engineer.

621
00:46:30,675 --> 00:46:34,935
Sorry about that. Before I switched over to EE, Java was actually one of the

622
00:46:34,935 --> 00:46:36,175
easier programming languages.

623
00:46:36,235 --> 00:46:39,755
It just made sense as compared to some of the other ones. Yeah, for sure.

624
00:46:40,055 --> 00:46:44,015
I feel like if farmers were to design something, they would design something

625
00:46:44,015 --> 00:46:47,675
like Dirt and Java, right? We come from an agricultural heritage,

626
00:46:47,815 --> 00:46:51,955
so that probably has a lot to do with it. So it's just so gosh darn practical.

627
00:46:52,875 --> 00:46:54,695
Very special thanks to my guest.

628
00:46:55,715 --> 00:46:57,855
I'm Felipe Engineer Manriquez.

629
00:47:01,635 --> 00:47:07,855
The EBFC Show is created by Felipe and produced by a passion to build easier and better.

630
00:47:08,655 --> 00:47:13,715
Thanks for listening. Stay safe, everybody. Let's go build.